6November24

Yesterday more Americans chose rather than rejected tyranny. To wit:

make Apartheid great again
make Antisemitism great again
make Anti-women great again
make Anti-immigrants great again
make Anti-labor great again
make Anti-intellect great again
make Anti-democracy great again
make Above-the-Law great again
make Assholery great again ...

prevails – 'DJT is vox populi!' – the culmination of the last half-century of bipartian Neoliberal de-industrialization – 'It's the structurally exploitative-systematically discriminatory Plutonomy, stupid!' – aided and abetted by corporatist Reality TV, WWE & Social Media which has groomed (radicalized) the precariat for reactionary populism???

Fuck me.

The problem with the Dems was what we saw these past few election cycles: the Dems never listen to their base. They could've let the voters decide who should best represent them — Mr Bee

Bernie. From the establishment's silencing of the right candidate for working class Americans came Trump's possibility to do what he's done.

It's a non-trivial matter to distribute culpability here. Clearly, lots of people are gullible and vote against their interests. Yet there is also manifest stupidity and ignorance.

How to make sense of this? For now, answers are pending.

the culmination of the last half-century of bipartisn Neoliberal de-industrialization – 'It's the structurally exploitative-systematically discriminatory Plutonomy, stupid!' – aided and abetted by corporatist Reality TV, WWE & Social Media which has groomed (radicalized) the precariat for reactionary populism???

Fuck me. — 180 Proof

Yup...

:gasp:

I'm going to try to become more indifferent to US politics as it tends to dominate the news, and I have become too concerned with it. My family gets annoyed with me 'shouting at the television'.

But I will note that the Trump phenomenon has normalised mendacity. It is indisputable that Trump lies continuously, about matters large and small, some of which concern issues of extreme national and global importance.

But with this victory, these lies have now become normalised - for example, the lie that Trump's many indictments were based on 'weaponising' politics and politicisation of the Department of Justice. The lie that the January 6th insurrection was anything other than a vile assault on democracy and law and order. All of this is now going to become normalised in public discourse.

There's a term, I think it's associated with Marxist philosophy, although I'm not highly familiar with it - 'false consciousness'. This is what I think the whole Trump phenomenon crystallises in the electorate. An entire national identity that has lies as part of its identity. It can't be good.

Bernie. From the establishment's silencing of the right candidate for working class Americans came Trump's possibility to do what he's done. — creativesoul

Yep. Bernie would have won, in 2016, in 2020, in 2024. But the DNC made sure that didn’t happen. So this outcome isn’t surprising— which is why I called it weeks ago.

Trump is still the stupidest choice, but this will come with a lot of good things— like giving yet another “wakeup call” to the Democratic Party and the inevitable infighting and finger pointing. It’ll be fun watching what nonsense excuses they come up with. :lol:

A simple question I ask is: how many times did Harris rally with Bernie?

… and how many with Liz Cheney?

That’ll tell you everything you need.

My family gets annoyed with me 'shouting at the television'. — Wayfarer

My family was annoyed that I was calling it for Trump :lol:

But yeah, it’s good to take some time away. Most people I talk to really don’t follow any of this that closely. What they end up with is whatever simple soundbite or slogan happens to make its way into their brains.

Political hobbyism, that’s all this is really. Don’t lose any sleep over it. Use whatever you feel to get involved locally. It’ll reset your perspective a bit.

I will note that the Trump phenomenon has normalised mendacity. — Wayfarer

In a post-truth society, the public have stopped pursuing truth, stopped listening to experts and scientists. Rather they let themselves follow whatever is emotionally satisfying, be it their own opinion or someone else's opinion.

Liars, scammers and manipulators have always existed, but the public have generally been able to arrive at the truth together, fighting back at the ones trying to scam their ways into power.

But in a post-truth society the public is in an intellectual disarray. They aren't able to organize around a truth or around some facts and thus will fail to keep demagogues and authoritarian grifters away.

This is why Trump is elected. The noise of post-truth society let's people like Trump do whatever they want and people will never be able to align around what they think about him. Only the ones who sees him for what he is are able to, but as we're seeing globally, more and more people are unable to do this.

It's one of the reasons why I am so focused on research, scientific methods and such in other arguments on this forum. Because people have lost touch with what rational reasoning really is. Whenever I see someone, in their argument, target scientists and their research with a vague concept of science changing all the time, and therefor "scientific research and findings can't be trusted", I know that I'm dealing with someone who has succumbed to the post-truth world.

It blocks any ability to progress ideas, to have proper discussions. Facts and truth are called into question so often that any attempt to form actual knowledge is futile.

The challenge, globally, is how we get rid of this post-truth bullshit. How research, experts, proper discussions, scientific methods and facts return back to normalcy and popularity again.

Instead of teaching people that all their opinions matters, teach them that facts and truth matters and their opinions are worthless without them. Make it embarrassing again to utter stupidity. Something that people look down on enough so that it hurts sociologically.

This inclusion bullshit of everyone's opinion mattering has shaped everyone into their own little expert who knows everything about everything.

It needs to stop, because this is what fuels the post-truth world that grifters like Trump feeds on. They won't disappear as symptoms until the root cause is treated.

How? I have no clue, but it's up to society to solve this. It's this that needs to happen. Everything else is just barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, I do wonder how much of factor fantasy is in all of this. I think Trump lives in a fantasy world of his own making. He plainly believes whatever he likes, and has all the apparent trappings. I've stood under Trump Tower in Chicago, and it really does convey astounding wealth and power. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny, of course, because in reality Trump has many business failures, and started out, not with the million that his Dad bequeathed him, but 400 million. But any kind of scrutiny applied to Trump, he simply denies and lies, and the projects all his weaknesses onto those who accuse him. And now the electorate has validated all of that.

when a country deliberately rejects decency, truth, democratic values and good governance, the problem is not a candidate, a party, the media or a feckless attorney general. Democracy is not self-sustaining. It requires a virtuous people devoted to democratic ideals. Whether we can recover the habits of mind — what we used to call civic virtue — will be the challenge of the next four years and beyond. — Jennifer Rubin, Washington Post

Personally, I doubt it. I feel a grave crisis is imminent, but we'll see.

I don't know if Trump will actually do the things he promised. I hope not. But if he doesn't, his voters will be pissed.

Trump ran on immigration last time and he had the House, Senate, and Court for 24 months and they didn't even a single vote on migration, not even token changes, not even during the lame duck session. And he oversaw a 13 year high in illegal crossings. His base didn't get upset with him then. They would get upset if there were major disruptions in the economy, so he might not do much of anything.

Same for repealing Obamacare.

Maybe I'll be unpleasantly surprised, but I am thinking it's more of the same.

Maybe I'll be unpleasantly surprised, but I am thinking it's more of the same. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Yep. Extending tax cuts, no national abortion ban, some dressed up nonsense on the border (packaged as something new, but basically continuing what’s been done with some murmurs about a wall), maybe some tariffs on Chinese goods (as Biden has done), and otherwise a bunch of hot air. He’ll be even worse on the Middle East, but will possibly stop funding the proxy war in Ukraine (perhaps the one bright spot).

The real shame will be 4 years of environmental deregulation, and the gutting of science. He’ll try to repeal the IRA, which may be possible now that they’ll have a trifecta (although a lot of republican districts have benefited, and with a slim house majority that may not fly).

Also, and equally damaging, is the free reign of appointing judges, which will further the courts to the right for a generation. I imagine Alito or Thomas will retire, and Sotomayer is in poor health I hear— so he may get another 3. He’ll have a full 4 years of a Republican Senate too, because 2026 there’s no chance Dems take it back, given the map.

But it’ll all likely swing back in ‘28. That is, if the party moves towards Bernie and away from the Clinton-Obama establishment neoliberal crowd.

The real shame will be 4 years of environmental deregulation, and the gutting of science. He’ll try to repeal the IRA, which may be possible now that they’ll have a trifecta (although a lot of republican districts have benefited, and with a slim house majority that may not fly). — Mikie

The IRA was the only reason why I wanted Harris to win since she literally has nothing on climate for me to care about. She would've continued the funding at least. It's fate is largely on the House now though as you say a slim GOP majority will likely not repeal the IRA given it's benefits to red districts. The great thing is that the Republicans don't really care about the debt so whatever tax cuts they have planned will likely just be subsidized through more borrowing.

Also, and equally damaging, is the free reign of appointing judges, which will further the courts to the right for a generation. I imagine Alito or Thomas will retire, and Sotomayer is in poor health I hear— so he may get another 3. He’ll have a full 4 years of a Republican Senate too, because 2026 there’s no chance Dems take it back, given the map. — Mikie

There's always the possibility of the Dems getting rid of the filibuster and passing all the court proof laws they want. I don't care about the argument that this gives Republicans the same power. If they want to use it to enact some of their preferred legislation like a federal abortion ban then they're more than welcome to try. Maybe we'll see politics actually be about a clash of ideas again.

But it’ll all likely swing back in ‘28. That is, if the party moves towards Bernie and away from the Clinton-Obama establishment neoliberal crowd. — Mikie

What names do you have in mind to pin our hopes behind? Bernie is too old now (older than Biden) and alot of the names floated before Harris became the nominee like Shapiro and Whitmer aren't really appealing. AOC also lost alot of her luster too since her initial victory in 2018.

I'm hoping for Jon Stewart personally. He's antiwar so he'll be way better on issues like Gaza and he's Jewish so the Israelis can't call him an anti-Semite. He's an outsider but a big enough celebrity that he can't be dismissed out of hand by the MSM. Plus he's funny and as Trump has shown being funny overrides literally everything in politics.

In his first term, Trump circumvented the law by issuing executive orders. This included leveraging Title 42 (restricting entry into the US during an epidemic), and his "Remain in Mexico Policy", which denied entry to the US to prevent triggering asylum law (the law requires keeping asylum seekers in the US until there is a court hearing to either grant or deny asylum. This is the true enabler of immigrants staying here). He also engaged in family separations to discourage people from attempting to immigrate.

Title 42 is no longer available, per court ruling, but I expect he'll come up with some quasi-legal basis to duplicate what he did before. He explicitly said no changes to law were needed; all he needed to do was to exercise his "extreme power to shut down the border" (i.e. skirt the law).

This doesn't make much sense, and I have no idea what you're getting at.

Anyone paying any attention to the temperature of the USA over the last 12 months would have seen this coming a mile off. As i did. Perhaps be less pedantic.

He's back! (— Michael de Adder · Nov 5, 2024)

Yes, but his party had full control of government and didn't even hold a vote on migration. To vastly oversimplify, Big Business wants migrant labor. They want wages down, rents up, and unions out, all of which are supported by more or less staying the course on current policy. Some headline grabbing moves that "trigger the libs," (e.g. family separation) is all the base seems to need.

Trump's senior citizen base wants their home values to keep always trending upwards and price stability for goods and services. Major shifts in migration levels, let alone removing large numbers of people, would cause huge problems for both. So I doubt they change much for the same reason that they ran on repealing Obamacare for 10+ years and didn't touch it—because as much as the base likes the idea of doing it they would hate the consequences.

Total immigration was higher under Trump than under Obama for most years and deportations were lower than under Obama as well, it's just that Trump adopted high profile, needlessly cruel family separation policies. But his general lack of competence and inability to pick competent leaders meant the CBP was in some ways less effective even as it widened its scope for who it would deport.

After Trump Took the Lead, Election Deniers Went Suddenly Silent

“Trump supporters spent years fomenting concern about election integrity. On Tuesday, they set it all aside.”

Lol— what a shocker! Who would have thought?! It’s almost as if it is, and always was, complete bullshit.

Anyone paying any attention to the temperature of the USA over the last 12 months would have seen this coming a mile off. As i did. Perhaps be less pedantic. — AmadeusD

I don't think there was any temperature. Male Latinos didn't back Harris the way they had Biden. One swing state elected a Democratic Jew for governor, but Trump for president. Latino sexism maybe.

Mike Duncan, who did the History of Rome and Revolutions podcast and put out a few popular histories, had a very good analogy back when he was covering Rome during the Obama-era.

When Rome still had rivals, it needed civic virtue to keep the fragile Republic going. It needed to levy large conscript armies from a willing and patriotic populace, particularly after the disaster at Cannae where Rome lost 65-80,000 men in a single day to Hannibal. It needed competent leaders, as well as at least some level of meritocracy to be able to overcome its many rivals.

After Rome finally defeated Carthage, they were left without any unifying adversary or real threat. Persia/Parthia was a rival, but a limited one, not an existential threat. At most they would take away a few provinces for a few years. Even when Rome took what is now Iraq, it wasn't particularly committed to sprawling out that far.

So, there was nowhere left to expand too. The Atlantic, Sahara, Persia, and the undesirablity of the north bracketed in the Republic. Thus, in the moment of Rome's great triumph, it suddenly became apparent that there was more to gain from trying to control what Rome already controlled then in trying to build up or expand the state.

That's the big parallel. With the USSR/Carthage gone, elites turned inward and began sharpening their knives. At the same time, for both, the military goes from a citizen force of conscript levies to a professional army—as Gibbon puts it in the Decline and Fall— "elevating war into an art, and degrading it into a trade."

China is a decent parallel to Parthia. And the large scale migrations to the West creates a similar set of problems to those faced by Rome due to the huge influx of slaves after their rapid expansion—most notably soaring economic inequality.

Rome faced a decline in all their institutions, and likewise America sees its unions wither away, its social clubs going extinct, its churches empty, etc.

But I don't think Trump is anywhere near competent enough to play Caesar, let alone Augustus. He's old and unfit, and he might not live out this term, let alone any additional ones (which he has no hope of engineering). This is probably more our Gracchi Brothers moment, or at most our Marius and Sulla.

I wonder if these kinds of historical parallels really are an accurate portrayal of this moment. I've said this often, and of course there is endless blather about Trump, but I think the single, biggest social factor in his rise is television (and the various new media it has given rise to). Modern entertainment media is so incredibly vivid and real-looking that I honestly think a lot of people can't differentiate reality from illusion at all; they honestly believe that existence is a movie. And Donald Trump is a kind of fantasy figure in that world. After all it's widely acknowledged that the TV show The Apprentice was a major factor in keeping his business and image alive after many business failures. And that show was all fantasy: the opulent suites where the show was set were presented as being Trump's but in reality, they had to be built by the network because the actual offices were pretty dingey. So Trump's never-ending refrain of 'Fake News' is more descriptive of him than of any actual media (with the exceptions of those media trying to be part of his fantasy world). Trump is the demagogue that modern media enabled, allowing tens of millions to vicariously inhabit his fantasy, rich man's world, while thumbing his nose at the Government and the law. As I said, with this victory, all of his Big Lies will now become part of the fabric of US culture. It's extremely warped, and it will have consequences, when the sets come tumbling down and reality barges in. But that won't be in the form of electoral defeat so much as the catastrophic consequences of greed, hatred and delusion.

Latino sexism maybe. — frank

It was sexism, frank, indeed. But it is very surprising when Latino countries such as Argentina had Cristina Kirchner or Eva Perón; in Honduras, Xiomara Castro is the President, etc. It is mind-blowing that they prefer to vote for a man who is clearly against Hispanic culture rather than a woman. As I said yesterday, I didn't think the sexism was that severe.

Fuck me. — 180 Proof

Seems gratuitous since you've just been fucked by several million of your countrymen.

Clearly, lots of people are gullible and vote against their interests. Yet there is also manifest stupidity and ignorance. — Manuel

These people are no more stupid or ignorant than those voting for Democrats.

American education system delivers yet again

American education system delivers yet again — Banno

"Just watch, once Trump increases the price of all imported goods on the consumer end, inflation will go down. That’s math or something. I think.”

Another aspect of the American education system that will be able to hold strong under Trump is their time honoured tradition of school shootings.

:rofl:

Fuck me.
— 180 Proof

Seems gratuitous since you've just been fucked by several million of your countrymen — Benkei

:sweat:
.

What names do you have in mind to pin our hopes behind? — Mr Bee

I'll do it. I mean, I'm not American, and don't know anything, but then that's probably a good thing.

I won't golf, because golf sucks, but I will sleep in till at least 10am. I'm not a morning person.

The destruction of the Earth's climate? Tax cuts for the super wealthy? Increased hostility towards China, including trade wars?

There is ignorance everywhere. But some of it is quite worse for people at large.

But it is very surprising when Latino countries such as Argentina had Cristina Kirchner or Eva Perón; in Honduras, Xiomara Castro is the President, etc. — javi2541997

It's just that Latino women didn't switch from Biden to Trump, but a significant number of Latino men did, so people figure it was sexism, I guess because they can't think of what else it would have been.

If Donald Trump is a metaphor for something, what is that something? I mean to you, not Americans.