Hi javi,

Yep, even the Finnish media noticed this. But we can agree that there's countries with even worse public health sectors. But it's the general malaise in Europe, the debt-lead economic system will have huge problems with low growth, demands for the health care sector increasing and government incomes decreasing.

The fact that both in Spain and Finland there will be far more less children in the future doesn't make me more hopeful that things will get better. Even with the health care of children.

The fact that both in Spain and Finland there will be far more less children in the future doesn't make me more hopeful that things will get better. Even with the health care of children. — ssu

Well put, ssu. :up:

Cute. :heart: :flower: @Benkei @Tzeentch @Tobias

Tulips are originally Turkish. :yum:

Really!? I didn't know that.

I wish I was aware about the Tulips origin back in my college life. I guess I could have had more chances with the Turkish girls in my class. I gave candies as a Christmas gift to one of them.—and she liked the detail, actually—
Imagine if the present would have been a nice box of tulips!

Number of deaths in WW2

Curious due to several exchanges i've seen/had in the last few hours:

Is anyone here prepared to claim Elon Musk made a Nazi salute?

Is anyone here prepared to claim Elon Musk made a Nazi salute? — AmadeusD

These new incel-type billionaires and celebrities do whatever it takes to frame themselves as masculine hard men, but they're like those insecure kids in school who tried too hard to be cool and tough but when cornered they could lash out in pathetic ways, while sometimes truly dangerous ways. In the US I'd argue it's those personalities who are more often than not the school shooting types.

Elon Musk seems to be such a person. He's not smart, but he spends a lot of money on trying to show the world that he is. He's radicalized into other people's ideologies because he's not smart enough to spot his own biases. He pays people to play his video games so that he can show his progress being that of the best players in the world.

It's all a show to fill that craving for attention. And up on that stage he doesn't know what to do. He dances around like an awkward drunk and he tries to interact with the audience in this euphoria of power, and in that moment he strikes a greeting that he doesn't understand looks like something else.

I don't think he did made that salute intentionally. I think it's being used by everyone online and in media to craft this narrative.

But I'm not sure this other explanation is any better. It just shows he's an insecure, emotionally unstable and stupid man who is easily drawn into ideologies with whoever gives him power and attention of a crowd.

A nazi we can deal with and fight, but a stupid man with too much power can be more dangerous. That's what no one seems to get in all this. Stop putting people in boxes and realize the actual issues, otherwise it's impossible to fight the real dangers.

If you fight him with the pretense that he is a nazi, then you will probably fail as he probably isn't and all the offense you used up with that pretense ends up being a weakness in the critique.

The public, on all sides, are so ill-equiped to deal with stuff like this today, everyone jumps deep into any polarized depth at the first glance of anything that can enforce their ideas.

—

Is anyone here prepared to claim Elon Musk made a Nazi salute? — AmadeusD

I don't think he is smart enough to be that fluent in such symbolic gesturing. My guess is that he was going for hand on heart sincerity and this, and missing by a country mile. What an enormous cockwomble though!

It rather plays to the general distraction though to have missed the far more significant alignment of all the American tech and media oligarchs behind the inauguration, and the immediate announcement of the "Stargate" project.

Meanwhile, in another part of the forest, here are a couple of grownups talking about international affairs and stuff.

Almost entirely agree with you both, fwiw. Thanks for your responses :)

Having said that, I'm not entirely sure I agree with myself. This discussion at least starts to make a case for the other side.

Hmm interesting. I had seen a few minutes of this (though, it was clipped into several items). I thought it was preposterous (one of hte claims tacitly supported is that someone with Bi-polar doesn't do what Elon did - therefore it's a Nazi salute... can we not?).

I think part of me is of the view that a Nazi will not deny it. That's part of the identity. I think if you're hiding that you're a Nazi, you can't have much faith in the tenets of Nazism.

(one of hte claims tacitly supported is that someone with Bi-polar doesn't do what Elon did - therefore it's a Nazi salute. — AmadeusD

That makes no sense. But what makes some sense is the connection drawn between ex nazis in various organisations that Musk has associated himself with and blatant sympathisers he has openly supported. If it quacks like a nazi, and nests with nazis, and twaddles like a nazi, maybe it's a nazi.

Hmm - while I see the temptation, I think that's probably not a good piece of reasoning. I also thing: Almost certainly not on this occasion. If it doesn't profess to be a Nazi, or actually espouse any Nazi ideals, I refrain from entering such a claim.

FWIW: I live in a country which is plagued by gangs. One of which is called the Mongeral Mob constituted almost entirely of Maori and Pasifika criminal elements. Their salute.. .is the literal Nazi salute. Seig Heil and all. Hard to think they're Nazis.

Hard to think they're Nazis. — AmadeusD

I don't think it is actually. Not that I know anything about them but a violent criminal gang that uses Heil Hitler, passes my test with flying colours. Surely they don't have to be white?

But folks get called 'communist' without having joined the party; anyway, I'll stick with "cockwomble" myself and recognise an enemy of society, whatever the currently politically correct label.

I think trying to label people as some definite type usually backfires. Just because something is greyish doesn't mean it's not bad. Musk probably isn't a Nazi, but he's a naive moron who buys into ideological stuff that suits his personal beliefs. So when a far-right party in some other nation says something he agrees with, it's not that they're composed of former or present nazis, it's because they align in their current policies with what he agrees with.

He's supporting these people because of that and doesn't get the broader picture. Though he's been radicalized into a trans hater so that aligns well with far-right extremists.

Bottom line, if he continues down this path, he will become a full blown nazi. Maybe he should stop with the heavy drugs before it melts his brain completely.

I think trying to label people as some definite type usually backfires. Just because something is greyish doesn't mean it's not bad. Musk probably isn't a Nazi, but he's a naive moron who buys into ideological stuff that suits his personal beliefs. So when a far-right party in some other nation says something he agrees with, it's not that they're composed of former or present nazis, it's because they align in their current policies with what he agrees with. — Christoffer

Amen to that, and it's probably not worth arguing the exact definition of our insults as if there is a precise and important distinction between far-right, fascist, and nazi.

News from the Guardian.

Revealed: Microsoft deepened ties with Israeli military to provide tech support during Gaza war
Leaked documents shed light on how Israel integrated the US tech giant into its war effort to meet growing demand for cloud and AI tools.

The Israeli military’s reliance on Microsoft’s cloud technology and artificial intelligence systems surged during the most intensive phase of its bombardment of Gaza, leaked documents reveal.

The files offer an inside view of how Microsoft deepened its relationship with Israel’s defence establishment after 7 October 2023, supplying the military with greater computing and storage services and striking at least $10m in deals to provide thousands of hours of technical support.

Microsoft’s deep ties with Israel’s military are revealed in an investigation by the Guardian with the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and a Hebrew-language outlet, Local Call. It is based in part on documents obtained by Drop Site News, which has published its own story.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/23/israeli-military-gaza-war-microsoft

I use Microsoft. Can anyone recommend other options?

I use Microsoft. Can anyone recommend other options? — Amity

No one can be moral like this in these times. All companies fracture tentacles out into all kinds of directions. You can use Linux, but I'd bet some robots used to kill innocent people somewhere use Linux as its code base for its system.

Basically, trying to avoid giving money to companies who are into shady stuff only works so far as to them being directly responsible for the shady shit. Like, people who buy from Shein when it's so blatantly obvious what they're doing, is bad. But Microsoft is so intertwined into everything today. You might even find your fridge have some component that when you bought that, part of it went to Microsoft. Or most equipment used in hospitals to save lives. There's an irony in how tech exists everywhere. There could be Microsoft tech involved in killing civilians, and then there's Microsoft tech in the equipment helping to heal the wounds of that same attack.

At some point, one has to realize that we're so deeply intertwined in the capitalist machinery that it's impossible to try and steer it morally, outside the directly obvious ones.

Trying to be part of controlling the flow of money in these sectors is like trying to steer the flow of an entire river using the palm of your hands.

Also, it depends on what Microsoft stuff you use. If you're on a PC you're only options are Windows or Linux, but Linux is limited. If you're going over to Apple, then that might help, but who knows what they're up to behind the curtains. If it's a cloud service you have lots of other options. Though Google is shady as well, so Google... *ahem* use Duck Duck Go to search for other cloud services to subscribe to instead. But then again, who knows what those companies are involved with as well.

Basically, it's either to live in this capitalism or live outside the grid. What helps is to use political power to pressure these tech companies, but since the US voted for a lunatic that will just build a techno-feudal empire, that won't happen anytime soon.

To choose anything within this system might be seen as morally wrong, and if we are all dependent on this system, then we have to live in this system while trying to change it at the same time.

Basically, it's either to live in this capitalism or live outside the grid. What helps is to use political power to pressure these tech companies, but since the US voted for a lunatic that will just build a techno-feudal empire, that won't happen anytime soon.

To choose anything within this system might be seen as morally wrong, and if we are all dependent on this system, then we have to live in this system while trying to change it at the same time . — Christoffer

Yes. Quite so. Trying to find me some serenity in a world gone mad! Thank you. :sparkle:

Grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

he's a naive moron who buys into ideological stuff that suits his personal beliefs. — Christoffer

That certainly seems apt. I guess I just don't heap a load of.. idk.. vitriol? On it. I recognize stupidity/awkwardness/autism and find it hard to 'charge' someone with their behaviour in that regard. That said, his position is.... making that very difficult.

Bottom line, if he continues down this path, he will become a full blown nazi. — Christoffer

I think that, however, is utterly ridiculous. The comment on him being a 'trans hater' does make clear where we might diverge, interpreting things though so no issues with it as a position in light of that. Its just ridiculous to me.

Robert Reich (someone who i think rarely says anything sensible) has penned a very good piece about Musk's issues here . I think, wildly, I agree with everything here.

He's not smart, but he spends a lot of money on trying to show the world that he is. — Christoffer

He's pretty smart. He founded PayPal, started Tesla, acquired Twitter, and took a seat on the cabinet just by dancing around on a stage with Trump. He has a reputation for being unstoppable.

Elon Musk is a fraud. I’m not surprised by the dupes who buy that he’s a genius.

For the record: he did not found Paypal. He wasn’t even the CEO of the crappy company he, and several others, founded — “x.com” — at the time of the merger. Guess Peter Thiel is the real genius?

He did not found Tesla either— he was an early investor. It’s true he acquired Twitter and turned it into a bigger cesspool than it already was, worth less now than when he bought it — hardly something to put on a genius resume. And generally he’s a simpleton who’s proven himself too stupid to even notice he’s a social media addict.

Maybe once he was a coder or something. But otherwise a guy in the right spot at the right time. I give him credit for investing his money in Tesla — how brave and inspiring.

Elon Musk is a fraud. I’m not surprised by the dupes who buy that he’s a genius. — Mikie

So... you've met the guy before? At least seen him with your own eyes in front of you at some point to know he even exists or ... I mean, where is this so-called information coming from? :chin:

where is this so-called information coming from? — Outlander

Is this a joke?

You can Google it— the history of these companies isn’t obscure.

DNA tests show that British Celts had matriarchal societies prior to the Roman invasion.. Wow!

He's pretty smart. He founded PayPal, started Tesla, acquired Twitter, and took a seat on the cabinet just by dancing around on a stage with Trump. He has a reputation for being unstoppable. — frank

He's as unstoppable as a cult leader.

He's good at optimizing production efficiency, like playing a strategy game in which a certain type of optimization is the focus of the game. But he's as smart as such a gamer who mastered such a game, but who still knows little to nothing beyond it, never actually read and understood a book.

His self-radicalization is very telling of the person he is. And since even Heidegger became a Nazi, being "smart" in one aspect doesn't mean you are in all. And Musk isn't even close to Heidegger's intelligence. Being good at optimizing production does not mean he's good at philosophy. Involving himself in a lot of areas really starts to show how stupid he really is.

At the same time, being good at optimizing production is a pretty low ability. The reason why so many companies fail at this is because they form company structures out of the tradition of how companies look and the people at the top are usually just corporate suits with next to no understanding of what their employees do and how their own production works.

So Musk's success is mostly down to him being something other than the usual suit. If other companies want Musks success, they need to put someone at the top of optimization who's in the same ballpark of "strategy-game nerdery". A form of holistic view of production with an understanding of each part and how all interconnects. Then make drastic and unconventional decisions to optimize beyond tradition.

The same person doing that does not mean they're experts in philosophy, politics, psychology, biology, sociology etc. Areas that Musk constantly interferes in with his moronic tweets and outbursts.

He's as unstoppable as a cult leader. — Christoffer

There is no Elon Musk cult. I don't think Americans particularly like him. He's just the richest guy in the world and now he's apparently in charge of the US government, sort of. Whether you like him or not, he's in charge.

"...as a cult leader"

If you look at the way people follow him, it's the same kind of cult behavior as with MAGA. The psychology is the same as with any cult leader. Uncritical following and worship of his ideas.

Some who liked what he did years ago have woken up, but there are hundreds of thousands following everything he does like zealots.

Nationality doesn't matter today, you gain power by the totality of how much traction you have online. It's the attention economy at work.

Some who liked what he did years ago have woken up, but there are hundreds of thousands following everything he does like zealots. — Christoffer

I guess I'm out of touch. I don't know anything about that.