It could be opposed to its alternative. Not exponential growth but just an expectation of maintaining the world as it has always existed. — apokrisis
but I'm also very dubious of green-left politics ... ever-increasing 'economic growth' pretty well defines liberal capitalism ... i've never seen Marxism as a credible alternative ... Maybe we need an Al Gore for alternative economics. — Wayfarer
God knows there are those who are trying, but they don't seem to have much of a profile. — Wayfarer
‘Collapse Now and Avoid the Rush’. — Wayfarer
The future you impoverish may be your own’? — Wayfarer
And as lived experience in the moneyed world, our children aren't having children. — apokrisis
This is an extreme mindset – one very much of today. It could be opposed to its alternative. Not exponential growth but just an expectation of maintaining the world as it has always existed. — apokrisis
The answer is obvious. Party will be over by 2040. — apokrisis
that is the win-win trajectory of growth, which itself is about a choice of some rate between a no-growth maintenance state and an unbridled exponential and pointed to infinity rate.
So that is the challenge. If you agree that the world is into its new era needing a new ethics, a new politics, then what is the algorithm that scales? — apokrisis
We have come out of a certain post-WW2 period of US policed "world peace and prosperity". A mindset built around humanism, democracy, safe seas, free trade and globalised political institutions. But a US dollar sovereignty and light constraints on environmental degradation. — apokrisis
Then there is the Model B question. It does all does go quite quickly to shit by 2040. What is the meme to be spreading to prepare for a planet that is crashing and burning? How do we brand that as a suitably universalising social response that can be bought across the entire globe as it by then entropically exists? — apokrisis
What's my point? I guess it's that somebody (everybody?) believes that you have to grow to survive. — T Clark
So I'm not really sure if it's an ethical issue at all, rather a logistical one. The ethics comes in when we try to decide how to spread the pain around. — T Clark
Just curiosity, on the graph shown at about 8:30, it shows a dramatic drop in food per capita in the coming years. What would cause that and what does it mean? Mass starvation? — T Clark
Resources can be renewable, like agricultural soils, or nonrenew- able, like the world’s oil resources. Both have their limits. The most obvious limit on food production is land. Millions of acres of cultivated land are being degraded by processes such as soil erosion and salinization, while the cultivated area remains roughly constant. Higher yields have compensated somewhat for this loss, but yields cannot be expected to increase indefinitely.
Per capita grain production peaked in 1985 and has been trending down slowly ever since. Exponential growth has moved the world from land abundance to land scarcity. Within the last 35 years, the limits, especially of areas with the best soils, have been approached.
Another limit to food production is water. In many countries, both developing and developed, current water use is often not sustain- able. In an increasing number of the world’s watersheds, limits have already been reached.
Feeding 10 billion people sustainably by 2050, then, requires closing three gaps:
A 56 percent food gap between crop calories produced in 2010 and those needed in 2050 under “business as usual” growth;
A 593 million-hectare land gap (an area nearly twice the size of India) between global agricultural land area in 2010 and expected agricultural expansion by 2050; and
An 11-gigaton GHG mitigation gap between expected agricultural emissions in 2050 and the target level needed to hold global warming below 2oC (3.6°F), the level necessary for preventing the worst climate impacts.
https://www.wri.org/insights/how-sustainably-feed-10-billion-people-2050-21-charts
I think the political situation here in the US gives us a good idea how at least one large country will handle it - badly. — T Clark
Given that the US isn't likely to handle this all that well, isn't continued US hegemony an obstacle to solving the problem rather than a help? — T Clark
Possible slogans:
Thank god I'll be dead by 2050
Let's all build an underground bunker in Hawaii with Zuckerberg. — T Clark
Saviour by green tech or battening down the hatches for when it gets rough for everyone else and the job of the navy is to sink the refugee ships? — apokrisis
If we want to win and prove that we're the idea-maker then we'll compete and keep to ourselves and make sure we say nothing until we have our name on it and can say "See! I am the creator of this idea!" — Moliere
The problem with coming up with different scenarios is that it doesn't matter which we choose since the powers that be will do what they do regardless of our reasonings. — Moliere
what I like about pairing these ideas is it gives both a critical problem -- the Marxism -- and a different solution than Marxism-Leninism -- organizing along anarchist lines. — Moliere
It's not like I really know what I'm talking about anyways (as the scary part of that is: I'm pretty sure no one does. We're strapped to a rocket without knowing where it's going, when it will stop, or how to control it) — Moliere
I believe the liberal state is fully capable of combating propaganda. — Moliere
Also, on philosophy: I think of it more of an anti-propaganda. Rather than giving easy answers to difficult questions it raises difficult questions without answers. Rather than attaching emotions to particular actions it questions emotions at every turn (to a point that's a bit much, at times). — Moliere
If this is your belief then in what sense are you interested in a real inquiry into solutions? And you should steer well clear of me as all I’ve got nothing but those. :wink: — apokrisis
And so on and so forth in terms of Maslow’s familiar hierarchy of needs. — apokrisis
Perhaps something along the line that any should be free to have an opinion and yet everyone ought to be fact-checked? — apokrisis
Sounds a shit notion of philosophy. Sounds exactly like propaganda run wild in feigning reason so as to spread its irrationalism. — apokrisis
Why Maslow?
Is it true? — Moliere
During the 1950s and 60s humanistic psychology developed in response to what the pioneers saw as the reductionist, positivist view of the mind as a complex mechanism likened to a machine- a stimulus-response mechanism in behaviorism or an economy of sexual and aggressive drives in psychoanalysis (Mahoney, 1984).
Humanistic psychology championed the holistic study of persons as bio-psycho-social beings. Abraham Maslow first coined the term “positive psychology” in his 1954 book “Motivation and Personality.” He proposed that psychology’s preoccupation with disorder and dysfunction lacked an accurate understanding of human potential (Maslow, 1954).
It may sound that way, but is it that way? What is propaganda? — Moliere
But all communication is propaganda in being a message with a meaning and so coming from a point of view - a message with some intention conveyed from a “me” to a “you”.
Are you wanting to split the world into those messages that are particularly annoying to you and those are matchingly pleasing? Your world needs this new message setting.
Do you see this as a pragmatic job for AI browser settings or a case of “if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee”? — apokrisis
I thought you were going to tell me? — apokrisis
I believe I did in defining philosophy as an anti-propaganda, at least. — Moliere
Propaganda is a virus, as you say, but philosophy is an anti-virus in that it inhibits the mechanisms of propagation by asking questions and not giving answers, but rather methods of thinking through things. — Moliere
Implement life as the Enlightenment imagined it? But add planetary limits to human aspirations as part of the political and ethical equation this time around. — apokrisis
It's not like the imaginary of the Enlightenment is easy to specify — Moliere
The Enlightenment, a philosophical movement that dominated in Europe during the 18th century, was centered around the idea that reason is the primary source of authority and legitimacy, and advocated such ideals as liberty, progress, tolerance, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state.
Enlightenment thinkers wanted to reform society. They celebrated reason not only as the power by which human beings understand the universe but also as the means by which they improve the human condition. The goals of rational humans were considered to be knowledge, freedom, and happiness.
“When the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or in the same body of magistrates, there can be no liberty.”- Montesquieu.
Four themes recur in both European and American Enlightenment texts: modernization, skepticism, reason and liberty.
The Enlightenment was an intellectual movement in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries that sought to improve society through fact-based reason and inquiry. The Enlightenment brought secular thought to Europe and reshaped the ways people understood issues such as liberty, equality, and individual rights.
The five core values of the Enlightenment were: happiness, reason, nature, progress, and liberty. Using logical thinking and reasoning the philosophers analyzed truth in the world. Given the current state of the world, we should all act more like philosophers in our day-to-day lives.
Enlightenment thinkers applied science and reason to society's problems. They believed that all people were created equal. They also saw education as something that divided people. If education were available to all, they reasoned, then everyone would have a fair chance in life.
We can identify three major 'roots' of the Enlightenment: the humanism of the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution, and the Protestant Reformation. Together these movements created the conditions in Europe for the Enlightenment to take place.
We can identify three major 'roots' of the Enlightenment: the humanism of the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution, and the Protestant Reformation. Together these movements created the conditions in Europe for the Enlightenment to take place.
So that is the challenge. If you agree that the world is into its new era needing a new ethics, a new politics, then what is the algorithm that scales? What key idea drives the idea into every mind? — apokrisis
From there, in good times the bacteria can grow exponentially to fill their Petrie dish, or find that they are born into bad times where the dish is full to its brim and drastic degrowth follows. — apokrisis
Tribes who live by foraging learn restraint so as to coexist with their environments. — apokrisis
A world where technology fixes all problems. A world where we share and share alike. Or whatever. — apokrisis
And to work, any new political/ethical philosophy will have to scale. — apokrisis
When the wealthy venture capitalist sits down with the bright young tech entrepreneur, the only question is "does it scale?". Is this product or service going to go viral. Can my tiny investment reap exponential rewards?
This is an extreme mindset – one very much of today. It could be opposed to its alternative. Not exponential growth but just an expectation of maintaining the world as it has always existed. A venture only needs to be able to cover its own costs and stay in some steady state equilibrium "forever". A no growth society where profit or surplus is limited to that which maintains the existing fabric of life. — apokrisis
Just curiosity, on the graph shown at about 8:30, it shows a dramatic drop in food per capita in the coming years. What would cause that and what does it mean? Mass starvation?
— T Clark
Murphy is using the latest Limits to Growth data. — apokrisis
The US is in a happyish position geostrategically. It has the demographics, the geography, the resource wealth, to begin closing in on its own corner of the world and letting the rest of the planet crash as it likes. This retreat from being the sponsor of the current global trade world order had already begun under Trump and Biden only made it quieter and more organised. — apokrisis
Truly the Boomers slogan, the first. — apokrisis
Philosophical inventiveness and understanding of rapid morality scaling will be a critical community resource. — apokrisis
After graduating with my chemistry degree something that dawned on me was how we already have every scientific bit of technology we need to address climate change. The problem isn't a matter of scientific knowledge, but political ability: At present the social organizations we have to deal with collective problems are unable to come to a global solution to a global problem. — Moliere
I'd say all we have the power to do here is share ideas. Creativity is what's needed, and creative thought is fostered by collective trust and friendship. — Moliere
The problem with coming up with different scenarios is that it doesn't matter which we choose since the powers that be will do what they do regardless of our reasonings. — Moliere
And what I like about pairing these ideas is it gives both a critical problem -- the Marxism -- and a different solution than Marxism-Leninism -- organizing along anarchist lines. Further the "anarchy" makes it to where it's not something I'm going to cook up all on my own: I'm going to explore and share and hope we can come up with something that works, because that's all that's ever worked to address collective problems before anyways. — Moliere
I've been shocked over the past 20 years or so how much progress has been made in doing what everyone said was impossible - increasing renewable energy production and distribution. Elon Musk and a relatively few entrepreneurs have changed everything. They took a bet on finding a way to make good environmental sense also make good economic sense. Of course technology had to improve in order for it to work, but no one had even really tried before. — T Clark
I don't see how this would work. It's not trust and friendship, it's making doing good economically advantageous. That's the only way I can see. — T Clark
Is this true? The current US administration, Biden, have had a dramatic effect on the direction of technological growth and change by just throwing a few billon, or is it trillion, dollars at it. — T Clark
Doesn't apokrisis's scaling require central planning? How can it possibly grow from the anarchist bottom up? — T Clark
It may be time to look at change of place as a primary goal over change of form. — Metaphysician Undercover
I guess we could all be subsistence farmers. — T Clark
In the 1970s, we were told that over-population would destroy the world. Now we're told that one of the biggest problems will be not enough workers. — T Clark
This seems odd to me, given how much of the world sees the US as an unwelcome influence. Do we still think that US lead globalization is the solution we're looking for, or even a good thing in and of itself? Is globalization the scalable solution? I guess in some sense it has to be. One-world government? Continuing the de-Balkanization of the past 150 years. 500 years. 2,500 years. — T Clark
And we're going to run out of fossil fuels while we keep on finding and developing more. — T Clark
Elon Musk and a relatively few entrepreneurs have changed everything. They took a bet on finding a way to make good environmental sense also make good economic sense. — T Clark
Doesn't apokrisis's scaling require central planning? — T Clark
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