You mean you would sign up for Elon's death trip to Mars? Or do you expect warp drive to exist in 20 years? :smile: — apokrisis
So we can assign priority to doing what is morally good instead, as a goal which begins where growth ends. — Metaphysician Undercover
But ecologically growth doesn’t have to end. The limits to growth are limits in terms of certain unchecked exponentials. Population. Atmospheric carbon. Ecosystem destruction. — apokrisis
Also it is arguable that given time we could run civilisation much as we know it off the solar flux and a big investment in sensible green tech. — apokrisis
I don't see how you can say that growth doesn't have to end, then go on to list the restrictions which will necessitate an end to growth. — Metaphysician Undercover
Maybe we have your catchy slogan right here: "time to start living off the solar flux". What is the solar flux? — Metaphysician Undercover
You want "endless" growth. Well what if we stop a minute to let you define that as some sustainable balance over a long enough term. Let's hear what you really want out of "a life". — apokrisis
You want "endle — apokrisis
Or if instead this is the moment to rewrite the script – in a way that is rationally believable – then let's see what that looks like as a social balancing act. Pragmatically it might mean 90% more time with the family, as you all dig the homestead dirt, and 90% less time consuming stuff so that wealth no longer has that demand side plughole to flush the global ecology down. — apokrisis
Upon making "doing good" advantageous, the people seeking advantage will start doing good.
But then when "doing good" changes, because the world always changes, they'll insist that the old "doing good" is the new "doing good" — Moliere
There are many examples of anarchist organizations, — Moliere
Meanwhile other more ecologically-savvy agricultural practices – permaculture and regenerative farming – haven't scaled as they too directly challenge the Big Business status quo. — apokrisis
And then this. The US choose to continue growth at all costs. It had only propped up world trade and Middle East oil deliveries to get the world out of its cycles of European and Asian wars. US was its own well-resourced and well-populated continental market. It did not need world trade itself. It is uniquely blessed in its geostrategic position. — apokrisis
A really big game is being played by the US that no-one ever seems to talk about openly. Under Trump, Biden and whoever is allowed to follow them. The idea is that is scaling is it is time to bunker down as a nation. Canada comes along for its resources, Mexico for its cheap labour. Japan, Taiwan and Korea get to pay to stay in the club. The UK and Australia are useful to a point. — apokrisis
Could they scale economically and technologically without that resistance? Could they close those gaps in food production factors you identified previously? — T Clark
There's a lot of talk these days about the gap between the very rich and the rest of us. Worker's pay hasn't really risen since the 1970s while the richest gather a larger and larger percentage of the wealth. How much of that has to do with globalization? To what extent does globalization lead to improvement in the standard of living for people in Asia, Africa, and South American at the expense of those in North America and Europe? If the only path to a new golden age is the dilution of the western way of life by spreading it around to the rest of the world, what realistic political strategy will lead us in that direction? — T Clark
Are there examples of large scale, politically effective anarchist organizations. It seems almost like a contradiction in terms. — T Clark
I guess that's where politics and ethics comes in. We need everyone, or at least enough of us, to agree on what doing good means in this context. And then we're back where we started. — T Clark
Are there examples of large scale, politically effective anarchist organizations. It seems almost like a contradiction in terms.
— T Clark
How large scale are you thinking here? At a certain point I already admitted that the answer is simply no: states are larger than functioning anarchist organizations. — Moliere
If enough people agree then they can pursue it -- I'm not sure if we're back where we started with that, though. Recognizing that agreement is allows collective action makes agreement a worthwhile pursuit, which gets along generally with how I think: It's more about building relationships regardless of the philosophical ideas we might be thinking about in doing politics that orient us when it comes to the doing of politics. — Moliere
Earlier in this thread, apokrisis wrote about sustainable agriculture and estimated it might work with a world population of about a billion. It strikes me that the kind of anarchist system you are talking about might work at a similar scale. That means that both are post-apocalyptic scenarios. — T Clark
2023 showed us, in countries all around the world, the deeply damaging impacts of climate change today. By 2050, those 2023 extremes will be seen as mild, with an increasing number of scientists warning that future impacts could lead to as many as 1 billion people being forcibly displaced.
Yes, 1 billion! — Migration In Hotter Times: Humanity At Risk
Notice again that understanding what is the case does not tell us what you ought do about it. — Banno
But as moral philosophy, we would soon have the anti-natalists hammering on the door. — apokrisis
If the future is fixed as you suggest, there is no point to this thread, or any discourse about what to do. It will happen regardless. — Banno
There are limits on our choices, sure, obviously. But our choices are not fixed. We have options.I said the future is pragmatically constrained. — apokrisis
Is there one you think is the correct path, — schopenhauer1
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