Good quotes. I like those views

Good quoted. I like those views — Beebert

Yes, but you have to understand that those views do not - absolutely do not - suggest that unrepentant criminals, rapists, mass-murderers, torturers, child molesters, etc. are going to heaven - they certainly are not.

That I understand

they certainly are not — Agustino

That's not for you to say.

That's not for you to say. — Thorongil

So you think they will be going to Heaven? :s That's impossible, if they are immoral and unrepentant that they will reach Heaven.

James 4:12, There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?

That's impossible — Agustino

No, it's not. You don't know their internal state, only God does. Why don't you let him be the judge?

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor? — Heister Eggcart

I haven't judged my neighbour, I've judged abstractly. If someone really is an unrepentant criminal of the kind I've described, they will be destined for hell. Of course, I cannot judge particular instances, only God would know their hearts.

No, it's not. You don't know their internal state, only God does. Why don't you let him be the judge? — Thorongil

I do, I haven't judged individual people. All I said is if someone were to be TRUTHFULLY described as an unrepentant criminal, then they will not go to Heaven.

I haven't judged my neighbour, I've judged abstractly. — Agustino

Judgement is judgement, and you're judging a soul into hell, which is not your place to do.

Judgement is judgement, and you're judging a soul into hell, which is not your place to do. — Heister Eggcart

Which soul?

The soul you think you can decide whether or not it goes to heaven or not.

The soul you think you can decide whether or not it goes to heaven or not. — Heister Eggcart

And which one is that?

Stop playing dumb or I'll stop replying to you.

Stop playing dumb or I'll stop replying to you. — Heister Eggcart

I'm not playing dumb, I'm getting you to see that I've actually judged no soul. I said a general statement. A general statement only becomes a judgement when applied to particulars, otherwise it's just a general statement. I did not suggest I can apply it to particulars, for I would not know what is in their hearts.

You said that you were certain that criminals weren't going to heaven. This is not a statement, but a specified judgement of all criminals. Furthermore, if you are so certain of who will and won't pass through the pearly gates, I'm sure you've decided for yourself that you are heaven-bound, for you aren't a criminal, amirite?

You said that you were certain that criminals weren't going to heaven. This is not a statement, but a specified judgement of all criminals — Heister Eggcart

No, I actually said UNREPENTANT criminals are not going to Heaven. And yes, I hold by that statement. All unrepentant criminals will not be in Heaven.

Furthermore, if you are so certain of who will and won't pass through the pearly gates, I'm sure you've decided for yourself that you are heaven-bound, for you aren't a criminal, amirite? — Heister Eggcart

:s Have you left your logic in the drain? If I am not an unrepentant criminal, it wouldn't follow that I'm going to Heaven necessarily. If A is a B (an unrepentant criminal is a hell-destined sinful person), it doesn't follow that C (something other than a criminal) isn't a B (a hell destined sinful person).

unrepentant criminals, rapists, mass-murderers, torturers, child molesters — Agustino

No, I actually said UNREPENTANT criminals are not going to Heaven. And yes, I hold by that statement. All unrepentant criminals will not be in Heaven. — Agustino

It's a judgement, not a statement. Also, how do you know that unrepentant criminals won't be in heaven?

Have you left your logic in the drain? — Agustino

No, I thought that was you, considering the tenor of your posts yesterday.

If I am not an unrepentant criminal, it wouldn't follow that I'm going to Heaven necessarily. If A is a B (an unrepentant criminal is a hell-destined sinful person), it doesn't follow that C (something other than a criminal) isn't a B (a hell destined sinful person). — Agustino

None of this follows at all because you have no knowledge of who does and does not go to heaven. Period. Only God does, which means that you are in no place to pass judgement on those whose fates you have no knowledge of.

Also, how do you know that unrepentant criminals won't be in heaven? — Heister Eggcart

How could they be? Is it possible to be forgiven of your sins if you do not repent? The Bible and Christian tradition certainly doesn't indicate so.

No, I thought that was you, considering the tenor of your posts yesterday. — Heister Eggcart

X-) Don't confuse. I take logic to be valuable and useful, but in a limited way. Logic isn't an absolute for me. It's not an absolute judge. Logic, just like our other capacities, is also fallible. For example, the Trinity is contradictory, but I think the Trinity is right and logic wrong. I also gave you the quantum mechanics example.

None of this follows at all because you have no knowledge of who does and does not go to heaven. Period. Only God does, which means that you are in no place to pass judgement on those whose fates you have no knowledge of. — Heister Eggcart

I don't know which individual people will go to Heaven, I agree. But that's because I cannot know if an individual person fits the description of unrepentant criminal with 100% certainty. If I could know that about a particular person, then I could say if they're going to Heaven or not.

How could they be? Is it possible to be forgiven of your sins if you do not repent? The Bible and Christian tradition certainly doesn't indicate so. — Agustino

I don't know, and neither do you. That has been my point.

I don't know which individual people will go to Heaven, I agree. — Agustino

Um, no you don't agree. You've already said that unrepentant criminals won't go to heaven which entails you having knowledge of such being a certainty.

You've already said that unrepentant criminals won't go to heaven which entails you having knowledge of such being a certainty. — Heister Eggcart

Yes I do have such knowledge, but I do not have the knowledge of who actually is an unrepentant criminal. I cannot tell you this man or that man, etc. won't be in Heaven.

Yes I do have such knowledge — Agustino

orly?

but I do not have the knowledge of who actually is an unrepentant criminal. — Agustino

Oh, so maybe you're an unrepentant criminal. Better prepare yourself for the possibility of the flames.

I cannot tell you this man or that man, etc. won't be in Heaven. — Agustino

Okay, good, which includes you too, (Y)

Oh, so maybe you're an unrepentant criminal. — Heister Eggcart

I said I cannot know this with certainty. I may be one, but I don't think so. Low probability.

Okay, good, which includes you too, (Y) — Heister Eggcart

Absolutely! I don't know if I will be in Heaven. But I do hope I will be.

I may be one, but I don't think so. Low probability. — Agustino

I read this in Trump's voice.

Absolutely! I don't know if I will be in Heaven. But I do hope I will be. — Agustino

I hope we won't be together. Otherwise, I'll have to pull a Satan.

~



1 Corinthians 13:6, Love [...] keeps no record of wrongs.

Sounds like hell is empty of souls, methinks. If God is love, then I wonder why he is said to keep a record of our wrongs throughout our lives in order to then judge which afterlife we go to. It appears as though God is, in fact, all forgiving, which is a quality I on't think Buddha can match, so Jesus > Buddha.

Sounds like hell is empty of souls, methinks. If God is love, then I wonder why he is said to keep a record of our wrongs throughout our lives in order to then judge which afterlife we go to. It appears as though God is, in fact, all forgiving, which is a quality I on't think Buddha can match, so Jesus > Buddha. — Heister Eggcart

That should be "mehopes," from a Christian perspective. There's no reason to think it empty or not empty. You simply don't and can't know. Hell still serves as a necessary admonition, though.

'Anonymous Christianity' means that a person lives in the grace of God and attains salvation outside of explicitly constituted Christianity — Let us say, a Buddhist monk — who, because he follows his conscience, attains salvation and lives in the grace of God; of him I must say that he is an anonymous Christian...'
— Karl Rahner

Probably also a member of the Church Invisible. I like that: anonymous members of an invisible church, known only to God. Sounds like my kind of religion.

Agustino might have asked you if there is an invisible pony club if I hadn't beaten him to it. Of course this question in no way reflects my views, it just occurred to me as a funny thought. O:)

X-)

Sounds like hell is empty of souls, methinks. If God is love, then I wonder why he is said to keep a record of our wrongs throughout our lives in order to then judge which afterlife we go to. It appears as though God is, in fact, all forgiving, which is a quality I on't think Buddha can match, so Jesus > Buddha. — Heister Eggcart

Then why does Jesus say that narrow is the path that leads to salvation and wide is the path the leads unto destruction? Why did he say that it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God? Why are there more mentions of hell in the New Testament, than in the Old Testament?

Perhaps he is just talking about this life?