Its going to be extremely entertaining.

What Trump said in his speech to Iowa before the vote:

We’ve got a crooked country,” run by “stupid people,” “corrupt,” “incompetent,” “the worst.”
Trump, in the gospel according to Trump, was the victim of “hoaxes,” “witch hunts,” “lies,” “fake indictments,” “fake trials,” judges who “are animals,” a “rigged election,” “rigged indictments,” and a “rigged Department of Justice where we have radical left, bad people, lunatics.”
The nation’s capital, Washington, D.C., “is a rat-infested, graffiti-infested shithole,” he said, with swastikas all over the national monuments.

His opponents, the prophet Trump continued, are “Marxists,” “communists,” “fascists,” “liars, cheaters, thugs, perverts, frauds, crooks, freaks, creeps,” “warmongers” and “globalists.”
Immigrants are like a “vicious snake,” whose “bite is poisonous,” he told them, and there is an “invasion” at the border by “terrorists,” “jailbirds” and “drug lords.”
“Our country is dying,” he informed them. And, by the way, “You’re very close to World War III.”

The people loved it. They swallowed every word, and they voted for him.

I can’t quite understand why this is. but I don’t find it entertaining. Depressing, would be one word, and scary, another.

Do you have the actual speech, or just interpolation ;)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/01/15/2024-iowa-caucuses-gop-candidates-trump/

Fuelling conspiracy theories :D

Putin says past U.S. elections were rigged
^{— Maxim Rodionov, Mark Trevelyan, Kevin Liffey · Reuters · Jan 16, 2024}

In the United States, previous elections were falsified through postal voting ... they bought ballots for $10, filled them out, and threw them into mailboxes without any supervision from observers, and that's it.

Pukin has Trump's back. Well, maybe not exactly.

The people loved it. They swallowed every word, and they voted for him.

I can’t quite understand why this is. but I don’t find it entertaining. Depressing, would be one word, and scary, another. — Wayfarer

Because they are just words, they have no meaning to these people. They hear a strongman saying strong things about stuff they have no education about or are too stupid to understand. It's herd mentality, groupthink psychology, fanatics. It is the same thing as in any other cult; the meaning of the words, the consequences of it doesn't matter; it is the promise of power; it is the promise of becoming the new kings of the world after they've lived in the backwater of the "experts" and "educated" people's rule.

These people dream of Trump leading them to a promised land, a kingdom in which they're the elite and not those other ones you see on TV all day.

When can we call these idiots actual morons? It's been years of people trying to balance things and say that we need to listen to these followers of Trump, hear their perspective on life and understand their situation. But when you listen to them, when you listen to Trump speaking to them, it's clear that they are downright utterly stupid people who basically joined a massive cult.

No reason beating around the bush, it's stupid people who are bitter and angry against smarter people for getting more attention. Spoiled adults who behave like screaming children in stores when not getting more candy for their fat asses, and their God is Trump, a representative of themselves, just as stupid, but able to storm the white castle of power.

One thing cannot be denied though, that the culture that produced such a bunch of ...

downright utterly stupid people who basically joined a massive cult — Christoffer

... is Western liberal democracy as practiced in the US. All the clever sensible people who wouldn't ever join a cult surely neglected their responsibility to educate their fellow citizens rather better than they have done, because clearly those people are not capable of educating themselves. That their cruel and imprudent behaviour to their brothers is now having undesirable consequences should have been predictable and should have been avoided, so perhaps they are not quite as clever and sensible as they think.

All the clever sensible people who wouldn't ever join a cult surely neglected their responsibility to educate their fellow citizens rather better than they have done, because clearly those people are not capable of educating themselves. — unenlightened

Not all. There are some on this forum who have put significant time into educating our fellow citizens, since well before Trump came down the escalator. It seems to me, that painting things in such black and white terms is likely to incline people to a fatalism you don't want to see.

There are intelligent people who support Trump, but in their cases it must be a political calculation rather than being true believers of the nonsense he spouts. Tucker Carlson called Trump "a demonic force." Sean Hannity said Trump was acting "like a crazy person" in the weeks after the 2020 election and also said “that whole narrative that Sidney was pushing, I did not believe it for one second”. Rupert Murdoch was dismissive of the election fraud claims and called it “really crazy stuff” in an internal memo. Laura Ingraham called Sidney Powell "a complete nut" and said "Ditto with Rudy" referring to Giuliani. These are conservative media powerhouses who were pushing Trump's stolen election narrative the hardest -- doing enormous damage to our country -- and they didn't even believe it! These aren't stupid people, yet they go along with Trump out of some sort of political or career based calculation.

When can we call these idiots actual morons? — Christoffer

clearly those people are not capable of educating themselves. — unenlightened

They swallowed every word — Wayfarer

And every time you say such things, a fence-sitter is closer to slipping off into Trump camp.

Admitting that you've lost is unamerican.
— baker

How so? What is particularly 'American' about never admitting you lost? — GRWelsh

We're talking about Americans here, in particular.

Think about the absurdities it would lead to. No political candidate would ever concede an election. No professional athlete or sports team would ever concede they lost a game or match. No one would ever pay up on a bet, because they'd refuse to admit they lost the bet. Society couldn't function like this.

On the contrary. If what you say were true, Biden couldn't be sworn in as president. Yet he was. And so on.
If a contestant doesn't admit that he's lost, then, in the best case scenario, he's just forcibly removed from the stage. Becoming the winner doesn't require a concession from the loser(s).

What you are describing is being a sore loser or being deluded.

What you're describing is far, far removed from reality. People don't admit to defeat all the time, and life goes on.

Not all. — wonderer1

Yes I was generalising about the overall effect of US society as a whole, which has produced trump supporters in millions. I accept there are decent people, but the democratic government and the society as a whole has produced Trump and his acolytes by the million, not a few exceptional odd-balls.

The implication of the existence of millions of deplorables in a society is that there is something deplorable about the society as a whole.

And every time you say such things, a fence-sitter is closer to slipping off into Trump camp. — baker

I don't think it matters, it seems that nothing matters. They won't listen to reason or criticism, they're captured by Trump's narcissistic "embrace" regardless.

‘Republicans Nominate Secessionist Felon for President’. How’s that going to work out? — Wayfarer

Very well, given the US disenfranchizement laws, the number of disenfranchized people in the US, and those collaterally affected by such disenfranchizement.

In the United States, a person may have their voting rights suspended or withdrawn due to the conviction of a criminal offense. The actual class of crimes that results in disenfranchisement vary between jurisdictions, but most commonly classed as felonies, or may be based on a certain period of incarceration or other penalty. In some jurisdictions disfranchisement is permanent, while in others suffrage is restored after a person has served a sentence, or completed parole or probation.[1] Felony disenfranchisement is one among the collateral consequences of criminal conviction and the loss of rights due to conviction for criminal offense.[2] In 2016, 6.1 million individuals were disenfranchised on account of a conviction, 2.47% of voting-age citizens. As of October 2020, it was estimated that 5.1 million voting-age US citizens were disenfranchised for the 2020 presidential election on account of a felony conviction, 1 in 44 citizens.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement_in_the_United_States

Voting rights are essential to democracy, yet the US is a country where those rights can be lost very quickly, via imprisonment. The US has the largest prison population in the world!

It should be very easy for an American to relate to a felon.

And every time you say such things, a fence-sitter is closer to slipping off into Trump camp.
— baker
I don't think it matters, it seems that nothing matters. They won't listen to reason or criticism, they're captured by Trump's narcissistic "embrace" regardless. — Christoffer

I'm talking about fence-sitters.

Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to understand people's attitudes. — Wayfarer

It doesn't look like you're trying to understand people's attitudes, you're far too eager to judge.

Contempt, contempt, contempt. They're full of contempt, you're full of contempt. So which one of you should one side with? Is your contempt better than theirs?

You can witness fallacy at work. Guilt by association, fallacy of composition, and a whole host of social categorization biases leading to the typical stereotypes. If this is the quality of reason and criticism then it’s no wonder no one wants to hear it.

My guess is it is not born out of any knowledge or experience or insight, but passed along from one pliant head to the next in the form of moral enterprise. It’s why you can claim people dream of Trump leading them to a promised land, a kingdom in which they're the elite and not those other ones you see on TV all day, without being able to show an actual sample of this being the case. It’s difficult to tell if this is actually true or the result of a fevered imagination.

It's been years of people trying to balance things and say that we need to listen to these followers of Trump, hear their perspective on life and understand their situation. But when you listen to them, when you listen to Trump speaking to them, it's clear that they are downright utterly stupid people who basically joined a massive cult. — Christoffer

It's easier on your ego to think that ...

No reason beating around the bush, it's stupid people who are bitter and angry against smarter people for getting more attention. Spoiled adults who behave like screaming children in stores when not getting more candy for their fat asses, and their God is Trump, a representative of themselves, just as stupid,

Such is democracy.

but able to storm the white castle of power.

The irony is that various right-wing political options have a better understanding of democracy than anyone else. They understand that democracy is a dog-eat-dog fight and they don't pretend it's anything but that.

The irony is that various right-wing political options have a better understanding of democracy than anyone else. They understand that democracy is a dog-eat-dog fight and they don't pretend it's anything but that. — baker

It's not all that ironic. Decades ago my father used to say that in a democracy the right have the easiest arguments. Mainly because these positions are often emotional (nationalism, race, freedom, faith, way of life) whereas the left often requires people to understand abstracts (social justice, structural poverty, identity politics, collective responsibility). The left will often struggle to prevail against simplistic answers which lubricate themselves in social Darwinism or 'might is right' and guns. It's hardly surprising that the right have so much traction when they have often been much better and more entertaining in the bar room fights of democracy, while the left, rather than rolling up their sleeves, often seems preoccupied with dissertations on inclusion. Or something like that.

And every time you say such things, a fence-sitter is closer to slipping off into Trump camp. — baker

More fool them.

So which one of you should one side with? — baker

I'll pick the side that is *not* cheering on a mendacious narcissist wannabe dictator.

That their cruel and imprudent behaviour to their brothers is now having undesirable consequences should have been predictable and should have been avoided, so perhaps they are not quite as clever and sensible as they think. — unenlightened

But was there such a behavior though? Weren't there enough good hearted people who cared for all people and wanted to help, just to get a shotgun to the face and screamed to get off their property? That there were enough people who tried to make things better for all, especially low-income low-educated people?

Isn't it the false promises of neoliberal capitalists on the right side of politics who promised these people the garden of eden; only to flush it with factory chemicals, doubt, fear and rage?

And then they turn their backs on- and want to fight those who actually stood on their side, making them suffer and in the end just utter back to them: "ok, then rot in your filth you morons".

We can blame culture, but part of the great irony is that the people in power around Trump, as well as himself, does not care for these people other than to feed their narcissistic blood flow, cash flow and voter booths.

After all this time, how much longer should the people who actually care for these Trump supporters as human beings have to wait for these Trump supporters to realize which side actually fundamentally supports them? Because they get so much hate and so much shit all the time while trying to reach out that at some point... enough is enough.

I'm talking about fence-sitters. — baker

Anyone who's on the fence towards such a side does not seem to have the capacity to understand reason. So it doesn't matter what you do, they are attracted to the childish bullshit that Trump spews out. It is clear by these recent years that it's a cult behavior; reason doesn't work, facts doesn't work. The only thing that works is if they realize the suffering they stand for, if they see it head on, if it produces a cognitive dissonance; in the same way as cult members realize what state of mind they're in. Listen to cult survivors and how they reason, what made them realize their faulty ways. Someone waking up from the Trump cult will echo the same reasoning.

It's easier on your ego to think that .. — baker

No, it is true. They follow cult behavior to the letter. Treating anything a leader says as truth, as something to applaud without any attempt to rationally understand what it all meant is part of a cult mentality. Why do all these QAnon and conspiracy people intersect so well into the Maga culture? They follow the same cult mentality; the same psychology.

I don't care about my "ego", I care about making honest observations of what is going on.

Such is democracy. — baker

Yeah, a sloppy version of it. Democracy needs care and systems to protect it. Because the result of a sloppy democracy is civil war. If someone gets voted in to dismantle a democracy, crowning themselves king; then the other half who didn't want that, will show that they did not want that. So protecting democracy and protecting it from such destructive forces as well as keeping the peace require better care for that democracy.

Democratic tolerance can only function until the intolerant becomes tolerated. After that you don't have any democracy anymore.

The irony is that various right-wing political options have a better understanding of democracy than anyone else. They understand that democracy is a dog-eat-dog fight and they don't pretend it's anything but that. — baker

You're talking about demagogues, not democratic people. They don't understand democracy, they understand the abuse of democracy by acting as demagogues, that's what a dog-eat-dog concept entails. By any means; fool the people, take the power. And if that power leads to anti-democratic actions, then what democracy really exists in their minds other than autocratic power?

What's even more scary is how sloppy people treat democracy. It's the same as how sloppy they treat freedom of speech. The constant appeal to them in broad, vague and simplified terms as some defense against actions aimed to supersede their actual purpose. And the so called educated just fumble their words trying to point it out to these people, it's absurd.

No, democracy is what it is and that kind of mentality is not democracy at all. That only proves that they do not understand democracy or they do not care and just use the public's low education of what it means in order to take power.

I'll pick the side that is *not* cheering on a mendacious narcissist wannabe dictator. — Wayfarer

...and I don't understand how people have trouble with this reasoning. There are plenty of other Republicans who're not like Trump, who can respect democracy, produce stability and act for the people and not for themselves. But it seems like Republicans are stuck trying to appeal to the lowest denominator, the easiest to fool voter. How long do they think that's gonna hold? When will that house of cards fall down? We could say the same of the democrats, but Biden, even at his extreme age, still holds the country together, through global turmoil, economic collapse. Still, get some new younger blood into the game, some stable proper candidates that can act like actual politicians.

The US is a laughing stock in the world, but we can't laugh because the implications could be dead serious.

How long do they think that's gonna hold? When will that house of cards fall down? — Christoffer

As I said a couple of pages back, there are two extremely serious felony trials looming, the Jan 6th and the Classified Documents trials. If the first of these does result in a guilty verdict, how is it possible that at the Nominating Convention in Milwaukee in July, the Republican Party selects a candidate who has been criminally convicted of trying to interfere with the last election? How is it even conceivable?

By the way, I don't accept that Biden is feeble or senile or incapable. I do accept that he projects very poorly on the podium but considering the stuff he's having to deal with, and magnitude of the problems he and the world are dealing with, any number of which could literally be world-ending, I think he's doing a quite exceptional job.

honest observations of what is going on. — Christoffer

Wild....

How is it even conceivable? — Wayfarer

Because the proper protections aren't in place. Maybe the US has never been in a situation like this in which someone who may implement anti-democratic policies gain power. I think the US and its people have been living in a fantasy in which they believe that such a thing will never happen in their own nation. That's something that happens in those other "backwards" countries, but not in the US because that's a nation of Godly blessed got damn freedom! If the US survives this overgrown manchild and finds some stability, I think that both the Democrats and Republicans need to implement a more rigid defense against this bullshit. Maybe look to more functioning democracies and stop believing they're the best and greatest nation in the world. Time to try out some humility and introspection and clean out the halls of power from power leeches and lobbyists, install safeguards that make it impossible for people who value themselves over their own people and the world to gain power.

I don't accept that Biden is feeble or senile or incapable. I do accept that he projects very poorly on the podium but considering the stuff he's having to deal with, and magnitude of the problems he and the world are dealing with, any number of which could literally be world-ending, I think he's doing a quite exceptional job. — Wayfarer

I'm not arguing against that, as I said, he's steering the half-sinking ship through a storm of global turmoil and economic hurricanes. But the risk is in his health, what if he suddenly dies, suddenly seriously fail in mental capacity. There has to be some actions taken right now on both sides to find some younger candidates to build up for the next 2028 election. It takes time to build up trust in candidates among the voters, so get some stable, non-bullshit, young people up there. And Republicans need to ditch trying to capture the Maga people's votes, even if they risk losing. Many other candidates feel like pseudo-Trumps, as if they just want to reach those voters. But that's not gonna hold, they need to focus on voters outside of that cult, and for that they need a proper candidate and not pushing forward other clowns.

I think he's doing a quite exceptional job. — Wayfarer

And in this, consists a claim that is entirely incomprehensible to anyone who disagrees.

Unsure it's smart for anyone to be determining entire life-long projects based on that type of thing (not aimed at you, Wayfarer - just a ocmment on why most of this discourse is laughable to me).

And in this, consists a claim that is entirely incomprehensible to anyone who disagrees. — AmadeusD

It's not incomprehensible, if you take the time to analyse the figures. There has been measurable progress on environmental legislation, economic growth, jobs growth, controlling inflation, and many other metrics, beyond the froth that pops up in newsfeeds. It is objectively true that the one major piece of legistlation passed in the Trump presidency was for tax cuts that benefitted the wealthy and massively increased government indebtedness.

That isn't how either side gets their emotions in place. And in either case, the other side can point to as many:

This appears to be an unsympathetic source trying to be balanced.

Also, My point was, and this is undeniable: It is incomprehensible to the other side. The mere fact that Biden has said such utter, and complete shit as accusing blacks who vote for Trump of not being black wouuld lead to this. I'm not saying their right, or across the issues.

Sure. Trump spent huge amounts of time in his last months in office assembling success stories, so-called, but his legislative record was extremely thin, and many of the things he blustered about, like overturning the Affordable Care Act, never happened. He also undermined much important environmental legislation because of his belief that climate change is a hoax.

But I'll leave it there, as you yourself said the other day:

I think Trump is an incompetent child, ill-fitted to working the desk at a Hotel let alone owning one. So the idea that he was President hits me as a joke. I can't grasp it fully. — AmadeusD

Sure. Trump spent huge amounts of time in his last months in office assembling success stories, so-called, but his legislative record was extremely thin — Wayfarer

Interestingly, the vast majority of his legislative wins he never mentioned publicly (such as historically high funding of HBCUs and other minority community funding, signing millions of sq mi into natural reserves etc.. but, in a large sense, what you've said is entirelty true and adds (particularly), in light of the above, to my take you've quoted there. He's a total knob.

Also, My point was, and this is undeniable: It is incomprehensible to the other side. The mere fact that Biden has said such utter, and complete shit as accusing blacks who vote for Trump of not being black wouuld lead to this. I'm not saying their right, or across the issues. — AmadeusD

Nice agitprop.