New Zealand - but i also looked about a bit in the UK, as i'm also a citizen there (and Ireland.. lol).

My experience is limited to the US.

The truth is, contrary to common assumptions, there are many professors who are ignorant and close-minded. Who just repeat whatever party-line they swallowed however long age. — Fooloso4

I met with the head of philosophy at my university back in 1988. I has been somewhat annoyed by the approach taken over the year, which was essentially telling us how to think. He laughed and said, 'Son, you're not here to learn about philosophy, you're here to parrot back to us that which we think is correct. If you want to learn philosophy, leave this course.' Which I promptly did 30 minutes later. I never regretted the choice. Anyway now I'm here, sniffing around to see what I might have missed.

I never regretted the choice. Anyway now I'm here, sniffing around to see what I might have missed. — Tom Storm

This is brilliant lol

There was nothing in personal in that post. I just get on my soap box when it comes to education and democracy. If I knew more myself, I might start a thread comparing the classical philosophy with the German philosophy. But that would take more studying than I want to do right now. Germany had an interesting relationship with Christianity imagining itself as the Holy Roman Empire and later, the state is God's will and all should obey the state. Classical philosophy was not influenced by Christianity and put man in a completely different relationship with reality.

I did not find evidence of "moral training" but moral philosophy was often represented. — Fooloso4

That goes with someone wearing your hat does not keep your head warm. Philosophy should never be memorizing what was said but always be about understanding concepts and independent thinking.

Tom Storm's experience is as dreadful as some of my own experiences with professors. I wish I had been a stronger person back in the day, instead of feeling powerless when a professor behaved badly.

I met with the head of philosophy at my university back in 1988. I had been somewhat annoyed by the approach taken over the year, which was essentially telling us how to think. He laughed and said, 'Son, you're not here to learn about philosophy, you're here to parrot back to us that which we think is correct. If you want to learn philosophy, leave this course.' Which I promptly did 30 minutes later. I never regretted the choice. Anyway now I'm here, sniffing around to see what I might have missed. — Tom Storm

By way of comparison, I went on to teach courses on Chinese, Japanese, and Greek philosophy. — Fooloso4

I want to know so much more about why you chose Asian philosophy. I have a terrible feeling that Christianity has closed out those wonderful sources of wisdom. I don't know exactly how to approach this subject but I hope you say more about that choice.

Abraham is a human ...
— Athena

If you mean he was a real person, a historical figure you will not find much scholarly support. If you mean that these stories had their antecedents then yes, but as they have come to us they reflect other ideas as well. — Fooloso4

I was not aware of there being any question of Abraham being a real person. There is no problem getting sources to validate the existence of Abraham.

By Cynthia Astle
Updated on May 04, 2019
Archaeology has been one of biblical history's greatest tools to sift out verified facts of Bible stories. In fact, over the past few decades archaeologists have learned a great deal about the world of Abraham in the Bible. Abraham is considered to be the spiritual father of the world's three great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. — Cynthia Astle

This is from Britannica

Where was Abraham from? The Bible states that Abraham was raised in “Ur of the Chaldeans” (Ur Kasdim). Most scholars agree that Ur Kasdim was the Sumerian city Ur, today Tall al-Muqayyar (or Tall al-Mughair), about 200 miles (300 km) southeast of Baghdad in lower Mesopotamia.Nov 19, 2023 — Britannica

At least there is no claim of Abraham being god. There is a big problem with deifying Jesus. On the other hand, it is fascinating what the ability to write has to do with us having a Bible and believing the history of a tribe is important to us. If these people did not keep a written record of their tribe, the world might be a very different place today.

Are you thinking the story of Adam and Eve is anything other than a story equal to Aesop's Fables? Why debate how Eve misinterpreted the commandment to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge? I like the story of Pandora and the Box better. Both stories are about a god's concern about what humans will do with knowledge but the Greek story does not blame the first man and woman and he does not punish them for doing something wrong but gives Pandora a box/jar full of miseries to slow down the human progress in discovering technologies with the hope they will continue to value the gods. You know, have technology with wisdom. Today we have technology but not the wisdom we need. That was Zues's fear.

About the question are the gods good_

According to Plato's Euthyphro the answer is no. Their less than exemplary behavior is the basis of Socrates' criticism of Euthyphro's misguided piety. — Fooloso4

Socrates was also condemned to drink the hemlock for his impiety. A person arguing the gods are not good does not cancel out the fact that the popular opinion was the gods are good. Today we could ask "is God good" and Christians would say yes. Our next question should be, is it good to be jealous, revengeful, and fearsome? Knowing a little of past Christianity I find the new Evangelical Christianity of a loving God, amazing. That is not how God was known for a couple of thousand years. At least not the Protestant God. I am not an expert but I think the Catholic God is much more forgiving and caring.

Asking for a god's help worked as well in ancient Athens as it does now, and believers who experience the help of the gods, do not like arguments that oppose their belief.

An incantation, a spell, a charm, an enchantment, or a bewitchery, is a magical formula intended to trigger a magical effect on a person or objects. The formula can be spoken, sung, or chanted. An incantation can also be performed during ceremonial rituals or prayers. Wikipedia — Wikipedia

The ancients used incantations to get the help of the gods. We use prayers. What is the difference?

From a certain point of view, there are no individuals. Where an individual begins and ends is basically arbitrary. Same with a group. There are beings all around us of all kinds— we humans categorize them in our perception and our language.

The focus on “great men” is as arbitrary as “great nations” or “great peoples.” It can be that simple if we want it to be— Namely, if we want to tell the story of history as a series of humans who we deem worth remembering. Personally, I think it’s mostly crap. There’s so much chance involved it’s barely worth considering, and most achieved their status as a result of others’ influence anyway, from Alexander to Napoleon.

Be careful with such so called evidence Athena.
"Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era, and after a century of exhaustive archaeological investigation, no evidence has been found for a historical Abraham."

From a quick search:
Cynthia Astle is a veteran journalist who has covered the worldwide United Methodist Church at all levels for more than 30 years, Cynthia B. Astle serves as editor of United Methodist Insight, an online journal she founded in 2011. So she is hardly an independent judge of any historical evidence for Abraham as a real boy.

Archaeology has been one of biblical history's greatest tools to sift out verified facts of Bible stories. In fact, over the past few decades archaeologists have learned a great deal about the world of Abraham in the Bible. Abraham is considered to be the spiritual father of the world's three great monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam — Cynthia Astle

The words in bold talk about the world of Abraham. and the words underlined cites the bible as the source. This is no evidence at all that Abraham was a real boy, any more than the world of Gilgamesh or the world of harry potter, suggests they were real either.

If you enter something like 'was the biblical Abraham a real person?' I will find more convincing evidence against that claim than I will in support of it. But, I am an atheist who does not think that any of the biblical characters were real. So, I am a bit bias towards the evidence against Abraham existing as a real boy. Even though I am open to overwhelming evidence that he did exist and the events claimed did happen. I think such biblical characters are all parodies and satirical caricatures of many real people, who lived during those times and way back in the BCE past. Such are all based on Chinese whisper style stories, passed down with alterations from each telling, based on the biases/intentions/intrigues of each storyteller.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence or else we should treat any claim that these were real people and real events, as highly compromised. We need evidence similar to the level of evidence we have that Julius Caesar was a real boy and we need extraordinary evidence to accept than a fabled character like Abraham, interacted with angels etc.

Philosophy should never be memorizing what was said but always be about understanding concepts and independent thinking. — Athena

It is often a game of wack-a-mole theorizing. Defending and attacking competing theories. Popping up again with modifications only to be wacked back down again.

I want to know so much more about why you chose Asian philosophy. — Athena

It chose me. It is common to ask an instructor to teach courses outside their area. Some instructors will just find a textbook, and let it do most of the work. Some textbooks have teacher editions that discussion questions and sample tests. That is not the way I do things.

I use primary texts. Rather than reading about philosophers and schools we read and attempt to interpret and discuss their work. To keep this short I had to do a lot of reading to prep.

I have a terrible feeling that Christianity has closed out those wonderful sources of wisdom. — Athena

Earlier editions of these works suffered from Christian influenced translation. This is no longer the case. We now have available translations done by scholars who have studied the language and the literature as well as western philosophy.

I don't know exactly how to approach this subject but I hope you say more about that choice. — Athena

You might start with something like this

Reading about what the translator says about translation is often a good clue.

There is no problem getting sources to validate the existence of Abraham. — Athena

The problem is these sources.

We can get some idea of the problem at issue from Exodus:

And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, `The LORD, the God of your fathers--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob--has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
(Exodus 3:13-15)

Why is there a question of God's name? There are several different names for gods in the Hebrew Bible. Monotheism is often assumed and following this the names are taken to be different names for the same god, but monotheism was a later development. In other words, the problem Moses faces is which god will the people to heed. The answer avoids names and says instead that the god of your fathers is the same god, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of Jacob. Moses unites the various stories and beliefs that developed over time among the Egyptian Jews.

It is, however, questionable whether Moses, the great unifier existed either. In fact, the Hebrew Bible is the work of unnamed unifiers.

Are you thinking the story of Adam and Eve is anything other than a story equal to Aesop's Fables? — Athena

I do not know Aesop's Fables well enough to say that they are equal, but some stories are more than just a story.

Both stories are about a god's concern about what humans will do with knowledge but the Greek story does not blame the first man and woman and he does not punish them for doing something wrong ... — Athena

There is a great deal more going on in the story of the first man. For one, he blames Eve and God for giving her to him. A bit more about this gift. In order to make Eve God destroys Adam's unity or wholeness, which results, among other things, in the need to make two one.

Rather than the focus on punishment I take the story to be more about the consequences of having knowledge. God sums it up:

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (Genesis 3:22)

Man should not be allowed to become gods. Death, like life, is both a blessing and a curse. The dualism of blessings and curses in this story should not be overlooked. They go hand in hand. They are tied to the dualism of knowledge. Knowledge is productive. Its fruits are both good and bad. Adam knew Eve.

Socrates was also condemned to drink the hemlock for his impiety. A person arguing the gods are not good does not cancel out the fact that the popular opinion was the gods are good. — Athena

Socrates called himself a midwife for men. He helps them birth their opinions. In the Euthyphro we see what issues from this opinion. As a standard, popular opinion is not always a high standard.

I want to know so much more about why you chose Asian philosophy.
— Athena

It chose me. It is common to ask an instructor to teach courses outside their area. Some instructors will just find a textbook, and let it do most of the work. Some textbooks have teacher editions that discussion questions and sample tests. That is not the way I do things.

I use primary texts. Rather than reading about philosophers and schools we read and attempt to interpret and discuss their work. To keep this short I had to do a lot of reading to prep. — Fooloso4

I want to know more. Which philosophers did your class examine?

I am thinking, that some philosophers are extremely difficult to read and I like the shortcut of reading someone else's explanation of what the original person said. But mind you, until relatively recently I have done my reading on my own without others to discuss them with and that does not have the same motivation of knowing one will interact with others. I am stumbling in the dark with philosophy without guidance.

I also attempted to read the Bible for myself and found it to be as terrible as Socrates found the stories told of the gods. For me, the Bible says so many stupid and horrible things it is not worth my time, but then I read your explanations and I am favorably impressed by your deeper understanding. If they give trophies to people who expand the thinking of others, you deserve one because I am pretty belligerent when it comes to the Bible. I still think the Christian thing is very problematic and harmful to democracy but you have shown a well-educated person can see more meaning of the stories than a less educated person.

I think the quotes you chose make it clear Judaism is a tribal religion, not an explanation of a universal god whose children are equal under the sun. And that tribal religion comes with a hierarchy that is not compatible with democracy. I am edging us back to the subject of this thread- Is our greatness the result of working together or the result of great leaders? What part does God play in this? I am getting at the international point of view and the fact that in some countries Americans are obnoxious people because they believe they are God's chosen people and that what they want, God wills for them. As the story goes we are blessed by God and those who oppose us are evil. Why else would God give us the technology of nuclear weapons if He did not want us to rule? Or as Zeus might say, that technology for war is a forbidden fruit and the longer it takes for us to have such technology the better. :wink:

The Greeks had a war with the Maccabees because the Greeks favored merit hiring and did not comply with the Jewish notion of God-chosen men and inherited rights to certain jobs. Martin Luther did not question God chose who would be masters and who would be slaves. Only recently has science begun explaining how past favoritism unjustly held some men down. The US is still struggling with old beliefs that justify divisions of humans. The question of greatness has social, political, and economic ramifications. The US was a New Social Order, but I don't think anyone today understands that because we replaced education for good citizenship and good moral judgment with education for technology and left moral training to the church.

:worry: Oh darn, I am dealing with a mental breakdown. My brain absolutely will not follow the linear process essential to comprehensive thinking. I am trying to clear up my thinking so I can make a comprehensive statement about democracy and the human potential. Then religion comes into the discussion and things are so complex for me, and I am afraid I am getting further from my goal. In the past, the goal was to write a book and I did great until bumped into the Christian issue. Trying to deal with the Christian issue without offending anyone took down my effort to write a book like an iceberg took down the Titanic. But the original Greek understanding of humans and gods is nothing like the God of Abraham's understanding of humans and God.

And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” (Genesis 3:22)

Man should not be allowed to become gods. Death, like life, is both a blessing and a curse. The dualism of blessings and curses in this story should not be overlooked. They go hand in hand. They are tied to the dualism of knowledge. Knowledge is productive. Its fruits are both good and bad. Adam knew Eve. — Fooloso4

Those who practice Hinduism and Buddhism do not wish for immortality on a plant where there is much suffering. I think you know more about this than I do.

What does it mean to be like "one of us" and to whom is that God speaking? Gods are immortals. Humans are not. I don't know how gods come to know what they know but humans have to learn everything and if they do not experience learning something they know nothing of what they did not learn.

If the Bible does anything, it spreads notions of good and evil, and if that is forbidden knowledge then why is there a religion that spreads that knowledge? I think I have identified why the Bible irritates me. It is intense frustration! What is to stop us from doing anything if not our ideas about good and evil and our conscience which is activated when we think we did something wrong?

I want to know more. Which philosophers did your class examine?

In the Chinese philosophy class we read:

Kongzi (Confucius), Mozi, Mengzi (Mencius),Laozi (“The Daodejing”), and Zhuangzi.

The Daodejing is perhaps the most popular. Kongzi is quite different but also popular. My favorite is Zhuangzi. I will be starting a thread on him soon.

In the Japanese philosophy course, from what I remember, we read Dogen and Hakuin. Although not primary sources we read on the topics of Bushido, Wabi-sabi.

There are others that I forgot. I will be away from my books until the spring.

But mind you, until relatively recently I have done my reading on my own without others to discuss them with

Yes, this is a problem. When someone asks me what they should read I find it very difficult to answer.

I think the quotes you chose make it clear Judaism is a tribal religion, not an explanation of a universal god whose children are equal under the sun.

That was a later development within Judaism. It has a very long history. It is often assumed that it was from the start monotheistic. It was not. The move from "our god" to the only god we worship to the only god in Isaiah happened over that long history.

Oh darn, I am dealing with a mental breakdown. My brain absolutely will not follow the linear process essential to comprehensive thinking.

On the contrary it may be a sign of progress. Perhaps comprehensive thinking is not linear. Wittgenstein said:

When you are philosophizing you have to descend into primeval chaos and feel at home there.

(Culture and Value)

The words in bold talk about the world of Abraham. and the words underlined cites the bible as the source. This is no evidence at all that Abraham was a real boy, any more than the world of Gilgamesh or the world of harry potter, suggests they were real either. — universeness

I agree and disagree with that. I have a nephew who is a preacher and he thinks archologist prove the Bible is correct. I think archaeologists can find kingdoms and learn a lot about them and their trade partners. That information does not prove anything supernatural. The most important part of the Abraham story is the Sumerian records that became stories in the Bible. Next in importance is the movement of these concepts into Egypt. Another point of importance is the Hebrew transition from herders who shared everything in common to farmers who owed private property and who could fall into debt and sell themselves as servants for 7 years but could not be slaves because of their special relationship with God. With that history, we can see how the morality evolved and areas of serious conflict such as the trouble between Caine and Abel. I am saying archeology is not equal to fiction.

We can know something about how the Hebrews were organized and their movements because they kept written records, a skill learned in Sumer. I believe Abraham is as real as Aztec kings found in burial sites. I accept archeology as validating the history of what was. This does not validate a god walking in Eden, and the Sumerian story of a god making a man and woman out of mud. Does that make sense? Archology does not validate the supernatural, but it can check his story.

But, I am an atheist who does not think that any of the biblical characters were real. — universeness

You aren't into history, are you? We might like to know the Babylonian exile put Hebrews in Babylon where the Hebrews learned about using money. Persia made it possible for them to return to Jerusalem and Cyrus the Great gave them money to rebuild their temple because the dualism of Judaism and Zoroastrianism were so similar. We can validate this because people were recording their political agreements and histories, and even primitive tribes left evidence of their existence and movements.
However, the stories are not without bias and it takes a lot of digging to be sure which story is the most accurate.

What does it mean to be like "one of us" and to whom is that God speaking? — Athena

What it means is having knowledge and not dying. This is elaborated on in the story of the Tower of Babel where God's concern is that man will be able to do whatever he wills to do.

I take it he is speaking to the other gods. Note how in Genesis one notice the shift back and forth from the singular to the plural with regard to both man and god.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness ...

So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Genesis 1:26-27)

You aren't into history, are you? — Athena

Yes I am, what point/judgement about me, are you trying to make by those words?

We can validate this because people were recording their political agreements and histories, and even primitive tribes left evidence of their existence and movements.
However, the stories are not without bias and it takes a lot of digging to be sure which story is the most accurate. — Athena

So yeah, we have to separate reliable evidence, and those ancients who wrote down lies and claimed they were writing truth. Evidence for the existence of Abraham is not enhanced by evidence that a town or city he was placed in existed, or that Babylon or Sumer existed and we know the names of some of their Kings etc and some of the events that may or may not have happened, in the exact way they were memorialised/reported. Archeology can certainly find artefact's from of a time or a place, and use them to infer or gather data, but archeology has not found any indicator whatsoever, that is very compelling evidence, that the biblical character of Abraham ever existed. Same with the biblical moses, jesus, the disciples, Paul etc etc. Was Jesus also an illiterate? Why are there no writings signed Jesus Christ or the Aramaic equivalent? We also have no evidence at all, that the god Zeus or the goddess Athena existed, even though we accept that the ancient Greeks and ancient Greece existed and we know some of their names and some of the events that may or may not have actually happened. You agree, yes?

Or as skeptics like to remind us - New York is real. New York appears in Spiderman comics. This doesn't mean that Spiderman is real. :wink:

Spiderman is not real!!!! :scream: Just as well that I decided to stop building that spidey holy place of worship in my garden. It's so disappointing when it turns out that there are no superheros, that give a f*** about us or understand how special we are, akin to how special many of us want to be made to feel, as often as we can make it happen. :lol: When will the human race move beyond such nonsense Tom?
I agree with sooooooo much of the content of @Athena's posts but I think that the ancient fables/stories she see's such value in have caused far more trouble than they were ever worth.
I even had a 'friend of a friend,' who is a religious education teacher, (who has became a regular member of my drinking group) recently say to me, when he was a little drunk, but still with all the depth of profundity that he could muster, that he had genuinely made a person to god deal with god that he would be spared death.
This is what unconfirmed rumours about the existence of god and those who are in touch with such, can do to the thinking of what seems to be, otherwise quite rational people.
I of course made the mistake of asking him, exactly what took place in this exchange with god. So I then had to listen for the next 20 minutes as he explained 'his dream that was a real encounter with god.' :roll: :death:

When will the human race move beyond such nonsense Tom? — universeness

We seem to be hard wired to worship authority figures, from deities to certain former presidents. This impulse seems to have a powerful hold but perhaps can be overcome with time. The god idea is something that has never made sense to me, even as a small child. So I am an inadequate atheist in a sense - I never found the notion of gods coherent, attractive or useful, even before I heard any of the arguments. I wish I could say I had a deconversion experience, but it never happened.

So I am an inadequate atheist in a sense - I never found the notion of gods coherent, attractive or useful, even before I heard any of the arguments. I wish I could say I had a deconversion experience, but it never happened. — Tom Storm

LOL

I wish I hadn't needed one.

Same with me, I was never a theist, I was bemused and intrigued as a youngster about the issue.
As soon as I could analyse what the religious were throwing at me, I soon became an atheist and have increased my credence level regarding the atheist position ever since.
I also think that time and an ever increasing spread of education, are our best hopes our species has, to free ourselves from the more pernicious affects of all forms of religion and theosophism.

Wait a minute. :scream: I never so profoundly realized the seriousness of this problem before. How do we have knowledge? If we believe we magically have knowledge then don't we have a serious problem? Such as believing God has favorite people because he blesses them and not others.

There is an important relationship between what we experience/learn and our moral judgment. If we do not understand that we go through life with false beliefs and wrong actions.

If Adam and Eve ingested a fruit that magically gave them knowledge why did it take so long to realize sickness and infections are spread by germs, a little piece of knowledge that has doubled our life expectancy? How about how our intellectual ability tends to improve with age? Like, should we go around the world giving everyone an IQ test to determine if some people are more affected by Adam and Eve eating the wrong fruit than others?

Logos and morals- logos is reason, the controlling force of the universe. A moral is understanding cause and effect (universal law, and good manners). Socrates thought we knew everything but when we are born we are in a state of forgetfulness. He saw education as a process of causing someone to remember what the soul already knows. I don't think that is exactly correct but it is better than thinking a fruit can give us knowledge and a god can curse people. Obviously in one belief system education can be harmful and in the other, education is what makes life better and improves our judgment.

That is not education for technology but education for good moral judgment. Our democracy and liberty depend that, not on a God, but on education for good moral judgment.

How do we have knowledge? If we believe we magically have knowledge then don't we have a serious problem? — Athena

The metaphor of the tree of knowledge is not intended to be an explanation, magical or otherwise. But the story does point to desire and vulnerability as leading to knowledge. Even before eating Eve saw that the fruit of the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom (3:6). They saw that they were naked and sewed together fig leaves to cover themselves. (3:7) This was the beginning of technical knowledge. But this attempt was not adequate. God made garments of skin for them (3:21). The problem of nakedness is that they were aware that they were vulnerable, exposed. They hid because they were naked and afraid. (3:10)

Desire also leads to sexual knowledge. It is interesting that woman's desire will be for her husband (3:16) but nothing is said about a husband's desire for his wife. For man knowledge is tied to the need to produce food from the ground. Agriculture.

Socrates thought we knew everything but when we are born we are in a state of forgetfulness. — Athena

The myth of anamnesis. I discuss it a bit in my thread on Plato's Phaedo.

You aren't into history, are you?
— Athena
Yes I am, what point/judgement about me, are you trying to make by those words? — universeness

I was expressing my delight that you enjoy history too.

We can validate this because people were recording their political agreements and histories, and even primitive tribes left evidence of their existence and movements.
However, the stories are not without bias and it takes a lot of digging to be sure which story is the most accurate.
— Athena
So yeah, we have to separate reliable evidence, and those ancients who wrote down lies and claimed they were writing truth. Evidence for the existence of Abraham is not enhanced by evidence that a town or city he was placed in existed, or that Babylon or Sumer existed and we know the names of some of their Kings etc and some of the events that may or may not have happened, in the exact way they were memorialised/reported. Archeology can certainly find artifacts from of a time or a place, and use them to infer or gather data, but archeology has not found any indicator whatsoever, that is very compelling evidence, that the biblical character of Abraham ever existed. Same with the biblical moses, jesus, the disciples, Paul etc etc. Was Jesus also an illiterate? Why are there no writings signed Jesus Christ or the Aramaic equivalent? We also have no evidence at all, that the god Zeus or the goddess Athena existed, even though we accept that the ancient Greeks and ancient Greece existed and we know some of their names and some of the events that may or may not have actually happened. You agree, yes?

I do believe evidence of towns is evidence of "his story". I think there is plenty of evidence of Troy, but that is not evidence of the reality of Greek gods. I understand the difficulty of separating fact from myth and I think archaeologists and related sciences do a good job of that. Geologists play a very important role in all this. Eden existed in the area of Iran where there were four rivers. Geologists believe they have found all 4 rivers and they have evidence of severe flooding and a very long drought. Then a return to good climate conditions returned the region to a habital place. Confirming the Sumerian story of Eden, but not proving the Sumerian goddess who made a man and woman from mud is a real Goddess.

In the Sumerian story, it is a river that ate the goddess' plants (flood) and she cursed the river to die (drought). Eve is Ninti- "the lady of the rib" and "the lady who makes live" but that play on words didn't work in Hebrew so Eve is made from a man's rib instead of a goddess who heals. Eden means "uncultivated plain", and Adam means "settlement on the plain", a return of people to this region when a fox gets the goddess to allow the river to live. The river asked for helpers to keep it in its banks and the goddess made a man and woman of mud. It is our duty to keep the river in its banks. We were made for a purpose. Many indigenous people have such stories of their creation and purpose to help nature.

archeology has not found any indicator whatsoever, that is very compelling evidence, that the biblical character of Abraham ever existed. — universeness

We do not need a birth certificate and fingerprints to know someone led the people from Ur to Egypt. His exact identity is unimportant to me because the story is important as a story of a tribe who followed a leader. We can learn something about the movement of these people and the possibility that they plagiarized Sumerian stories that were built on a story of climate change. Information that can help us separate fact from myth and help us understand not only the movement of the tribe but also something of their social order and reasoning for it. What gave their leader the authority to rule was heridity. Whoever Abraham was he was representative of the father. As before patriarchy, a female represented the mother.

Was Jesus also an illiterate? — universeness

In the Bible Jesus reads and writes a couple of times. One is in Hebrew and the other times the language is not specified but it could be Greek — Frigorifico

We are told Jesus hung around the rabbis digging for information, however the case for them educating the young to read is very weak. In a book about the history of education that I have, Jews didn't consider educating their children until they had contact with the Greeks and their sons (horror!) participated in the sporting events without clothes! That put on the pressure to make the son's Jewish before they left and joined with non-Jews. That brings us to the Wikipedia link.

Education has been defined as, "teaching and learning specific skills, and also something less tangible, but more profound: the imparting of knowledge, positive judgement and well-developed wisdom. Education has as one of its fundamental aspects the imparting of culture from generation to generation (see socialization)".

While curriculum and texts for schools has been found in other areas of the ancient near east, no direct evidence—either literary or archaeological—exists for schools in ancient Israel.[1] There is no word for school in ancient (biblical) Hebrew,[1] the earliest reference to a "house of study" (bet hammidras) is found in the mid-Hellenistic period (2nd cent. BC) in the book of Ben Sira (51:23).[2]

However, the writing of the Bible as well as the variety of inscriptional material from ancient Palestine testifies to a relatively robust scribal culture that must have existed to create these textual artifacts.[1] The best unambiguous evidence for schools in ancient Israel comes from a few abecedaries and accounting practice texts found at sites such as Izbet Sarta, Tel Zayit, Kadesh Barnea, and Kuntillet ʿAjrud.[1] However, these were probably not schools in the traditional sense but rather an apprenticeship system located in the family.[1]

The total literacy rate of Jews in Israel in the first centuries c.e. was "probably less than 3%". While this may seem very low by today's standards, it was relatively high in the ancient world. If we ignore women (on the ground of their not participating in society), take into consideration children above the age of seven only, forget the far-away farmers and regard literacy of the non-educated people (e.g., one who cannot read the Torah but reads a bulla, that is: pragmatic literacy), then the literacy rate (adult males in the centers), might be even 20%, a high rate in traditional society.[3][4][5] — Wikipedia

The metaphor of the tree of knowledge is not intended to be an explanation, magical or otherwise. But the story does point to desire and vulnerability as leading to knowledge. Even before eating Eve saw that the fruit of the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom (3:6). They saw that they were naked and sewed together fig leaves to cover themselves. (3:7) This was the beginning of technical knowledge. But this attempt was not adequate. God made garments of skin for them (3:21). The problem of nakedness is that they were aware that they were vulnerable, exposed. They hid because they were naked and afraid. (3:10) — Fooloso4

Of course, fig leaves don't make good clothes it would be a very stupid human who doesn't know that. And I strongly doubt that a metaphorical god made their clothes out of animal skins. How did the god kill the animal and treat the skins? Do you know how hard it is to cut and sew leather? Surely humans in cold regions learned to do that for themselves without the help of a god and that is possible only because we have desire and curiosity and we are made to resolve problems. Our survival depends on that. Isn't there something wrong with telling us what is good about us is bad and should be punished?

People in warm climates such as Hawaii and Africa have no problem exposing their bodies. If we cover any part of the body it is about protection, and not shame unless we learn to be ashamed. And you left out the snake who lured Eve into eating the fruit. Maybe this god and the snake had bodies or maybe they were just metaphors. For sure a person has to have a set of beliefs before anything in the Bible makes sense. Before the Bible can make sense we have to get past the problem of determining what is a metaphor and what is not. I think Greek philosophy can help us with that. Do you think less sophisticated people knew the difference between a metaphor and something that is real? Remember the witch hunts and fear of being possessed?

I see others who posted here said they never did accept the Christian mythology as truth. I was a believer and a part of that belief was fear of being possessed. I had a choice. Decide it was all a myth or begin killing people as I felt like a power was pushing me to do. It was a serious fight for my sanity and I am glad I chose to believe the Christian belief is false.

The myth of anamnesis. I discuss it a bit in my thread on Plato's Phaedo. — Fooloso4

I would rather go with the empiricist, but I am not closed to the possibility of life after death or reincarnation. I think I am very open-minded. However, when it comes to having good moral judgment, I am 100% in favor of educating people for good moral judgment and good citizenship.

I think that the ancient fables/stories she see's such value in have caused far more trouble than they were ever worth. — universeness

We have the same problem with Christianity. I most certainly do not believe gods ever existed and Socrates was horrified by what well-meaning parents taught their children when the repeated stories of the gods doing things that should not be done. Our stories are important to us but we need to select them carefully and not all books should be in a grade school library.

I am not sure where Fooloso4 stands on the Christian thing, but I am keenly aware of the importance of stories for helping us become better people and helping us live in groups much larger than a tribe. Without religion, there would not be civilizations. While I know Artemis is not a goddess I called upon her when I was alone and lost in the mountains. I don't care that this was just imagination. Calling upon her worked as well for me as a Christian's prayers work for the Christian. Incantations and prayers do work. There is a scientific explanation for why this is so. How we think plays an important part in how we feel and our ability to get things done.

fig leaves don't make good clothes it would be a very stupid human who doesn't know that. — Athena

You asked: "how do we have knowledge". The point is that knowledge of how to make clothes is something that begins with rudimentary attempts, not developed knowledge.

And I strongly doubt that a metaphorical god made their clothes out of animal skins. — Athena

Why would you doubt that in a metaphor of god making clothes out of animal skins god made their clothes out of animal skins?

How did the god kill the animal and treat the skins? Do you know how hard it is to cut and sew leather? — Athena

When you ask how we have knowledge I took it you were asking about human beings.

Surely humans in cold regions learned to do that for themselves without the help of a god ... — Athena

Right. Do you think their early attempts were as proficient as later attempts? In the story nothing is said about god helping them learn. He did for them what they were not yet able to do for themselves.

You answer your own question. They learned for themselves.

Isn't there something wrong with telling us what is good about us is bad and should be punished? — Athena

This is not the way I read the story. Knowledge is not simply good for us, or bad for us. Both are aspects of knowledge. It is not a matter of punishment but of consequences. Knowledge brings both benefits and harm.

People in warm climates such as Hawaii and Africa have no problem exposing their bodies. — Athena

People in warm climates have a problem with vulnerability. They must protect themselves. They must guard against being exposed to whatever it is that can harm them.

And you left out the snake who lured Eve into eating the fruit. — Athena

I wanted to avoid bringing up too much at the same time.

Maybe this god and the snake had bodies or maybe they were just metaphors. — Athena

As I read it the snake's body is part of the metaphor. Consider the way snakes move. In order to move right they move left then right then left. The movement is a metaphor for deviousness.

For sure a person has to have a set of beliefs before anything in the Bible makes sense. — Athena

So much is true in order for any story to make sense. Too often the problem is assuming the story matches the beliefs one brings to it.

Do you think less sophisticated people knew the difference between a metaphor and something that is real? — Athena

If you mean people from ancient cultures, I think they might be more sophisticated than you give them credit for. Understanding stories based on the dichotomy real and metaphorical is not very sophisticated.

Remember the witch hunts and fear of being possessed? — Athena

Some stories are more insightful than others.

I am not sure where Fooloso4 stands on the Christian thing, — Athena

I think Jesus was a real person, but that real person is not the person(s) created by the legends or the persons created by interpretation of the NT legends. The "Christian thing" has from the beginning been different things.

I was expressing my delight that you enjoy history too. — Athena

Ok.

While I know Artemis is not a goddess I called upon her when I was alone and lost in the mountains. I don't care that this was just imagination. Calling upon her worked as well for me as a Christian's prayers work for the Christian. Incantations and prayers do work. There is a scientific explanation for why this is so. How we think plays an important part in how we feel and our ability to get things done. — Athena

This is nothing more than personal placebo effects, imo.

I am not sure where Fooloso4 stands on the Christian thing — Athena

Many people hold their cards close.

You asked: "how do we have knowledge". The point is that knowledge of how to make clothes is something that begins with rudimentary attempts, not developed knowledge. — Fooloso4

Then why are we arguing about a god making a man and woman clothes?

At first, your well-developed ideas of what the deeper meaning of Biblical stories impressed me, but it has gotten way to far from the subject of this thread. Alexander the Great had followers who believed he was the son of a god. That false belief and many followers achieved a lot. So have people with other false beliefs of other gods achieved great things. I think we can conclude false beliefs can attract people who believe them and the person they follow will have the strength of armies. The leaders and the people can build pyramids or cross mountains and win wars.

I think we can say war is gods and gods are good for wars. We might think it a point of genius to lead large populations of believers against imagined evil powers. Throughout history, a few benefited more from this behavior more than the masses who followed the militant leader and those who labored to feed the armies and pay the taxes to pay for the wars.

I think we can call this social injustice and I think we can fault the belief that is at the root of this injustice.

I think Jesus was a real person, but that real person is not the person(s) created by the legends or the persons created by the interpretation of the NT legends. The "Christian thing" has from the beginning been different things. — Fooloso4

Why would you think Jesus was a real person and not Abraham? Neither would have had followers without the belief in a god and Alexander the Great would not have been so great if his followers didn't believe he was the son of a god. And US taxpayers would not be in so much debt for war experiences if the masses were not united by a false belief in God and evil. The role these beliefs play in the controversy of greatness can be interesting. What does belief have to do with the potential for greatness?

Some of those different things we can accomplish was completing religious colonies in the US and then expansion across the wilderness and the destruction of Native Tribes and almost the death of the Natives' understanding of reality and our relationship with nature. A wrong I do believe we have adequately acknowledged.

All this is bound up with capitalism in every interesting ways. The Shriners Hospital can do great things in the effort to save children's lives because of the people willing to donate to the cause. Should we passively let people die if that is the will of God, or should we take a moral stand and do what people working together can do?

This is nothing more that personal placebo effects, imo. — universeness

Thanks, I was struggling to come up with the right word. I would not demean the power of the placebo effect and our ability to use our minds to improve every aspect of our lives. I think we should acknowledge the power of incantations and prayer.

I think we should acknowledge the power of incantations and prayer. — Athena

But we must do so in a clear and careful manner. I think we should acknowledge the positive personal placebo affect that can be gained from a positive mental attitude. If your personal PMA is based on incantation and 'prayer' then sure, I see the connection you are making, but it is also very important to state that if you are praying to a god or your incantations are attempts to invoke supernatural intercession on your behalf, then it is very likely that you are a deluded fool, but still you may nonetheless, generate the positive placebo affect you needed.