I knew they were wrong from the get go. But you believed it. — NOS4A2

So you were pessimistic. You knew January 6th wouldn't accomplish anything. And it didn't.

But it is a fact that Russia did interfere with the 2016 election. The Mueller Report did not exonerate Trump.

There was a moral panic when Trump showed up on the scene. He was the next big dictator, compared to everyone from Mussolini, to Mugabe, to Mao. He was the harbinger of a new fascism. He was a Manchurian candidate. He was going to start world war 3 and throw us into nuclear holocaust.

None of this would turn out to be true <snip> — NOS4A2

I think it did come true in the sense of Trump trying to stay in power illegitimately. That is what would-be dictators do and it is very scary. It was disturbing when even before the election Trump was undermining the validity of mail in voting -- even though he himself had used mail in voting. It was disturbing how even before the election he claimed the only way he could lose if it was rigged. And then, on election night, surprise, surprise, he claimed he did win even though we all knew all the votes hadn't been counted yet. And then after that, he tried a multi-pronged attempt to retain power. He filed lawsuits. He pressured the DoJ to say the election was corrupt. He conspired with Republican members of Congress and others in the "Green Bay Sweep" plan involving fake electors and returning real electors to Republican-controlled state legislatures. He pressured local election officials in swing states like Georgia to "find more votes." He pressured Mike Pence to not certify the election results. And on January 6th, he unleased a mob onto the Capitol in an attempt to intimidate Mike Pence and Congress on the day they were supposed to be certifying a new president.

Maybe in that reality warp you speak of such an act is disturbing, but if beneath the noses of American voters shadowy and conspiratorial groups with vast sums of dark money were changing how elections fundamentally operate, contesting it was the right thing to do.

Well, the way how to handle that is with the lawsuits. Prove the election was stolen in a court of law, back up the claims with argument and evidence. I have no problem with the lawsuits as that is the proper way to challenge what one sees as an injustice. But after the lawsuits were thrown out, it was time to move on and concede for the good of the country.

I’m not sure the lawsuits were a good idea because everything they did to alter how elections were ran was done legally at the legislative level, with the collusion of those in power. The people should have contested the election en masse but the propaganda was by then too thick.

Contested the election on what grounds? It still goes back to needing to back up claims with arguments and evidence.

By rigging elections legally I am guessing you are not talking about gerrymandering. We know that happens.

One big tip off that claiming "the election was stolen" was a strategy and not an actual belief is how Trump declared victory on election night when we all knew all the votes couldn't possibly have been counted yet. Also, he foreshadowed doing this for months ahead of time. You can't know election results are illegitimate before the election has occurred. Yet Trump claimed that the only way he could lose was if the election was stolen. How could he possibly know that? He couldn't. It wasn't a belief, it was a strategy.

But after the lawsuits were thrown out, it was time to move on and concede for the good of the country. — GRWelsh

Anyone with a brain cell knew Trump would claim the election was stolen if he lost. He would have done so in 2016. He did so in Iowa that year when Cruz won the caucus. It was foregone.

He’s been lying about a stolen election for years, and the reality is that he tried his best to steal it himself. The Georgia “perfect call” is a good taste, not to mention what he did to Pence. To say nothing of deliberately inciting an insurrection, using his followers to throw a tantrum for him.

Contested the election on what grounds? — GRWelsh

Oh I’m sure they’ll come up with something — like the fact that during a pandemic, mail-in voting (which has been around for decades) was expanded. In 2016 it would have been that buses of immigrants were given the right to vote in California, etc. etc. In other words: when we lose, it’s rigged by the deep state (despite plenty of split voting), because there’s no way Trump is hated by so many Americans — and when we win, nothing to see. We will in fact rail against the Russia narrative, which at least was based in reality and was shown to be true, despite the fact that the interference did not swing the election to Trump.

Years later, they sound exactly like what they accused the Democrats of sounding like. It’s hilarious.

How Our Efforts to Bring Competition To Television Unknowingly Helped Create the Fox Disinformation Machine
^{— Preston Padden, Ken Solomon, Bill Reyner · Jul 12, 2023}

Reported elsewhere ...

Ex-Fox Execs Are Now Appalled By 'Disinformation Machine' They Helped Create
^{— Ed Mazza · HuffPost · Jul 13, 2023}
Former Fox executives express ‘deep disappointment’ for helping build ‘disinformation machine’
^{— Lauren Sforza · The Hill · Jul 13, 2023}

The "machine" and Dump share a category or something.

The possibility of Trump winning the election in 2024 and making all of his legal troubles go away as if by waving a magic wand is absurd.

I don't think the presidential pardon power should extend to oneself. For a president to even ask if he theoretically has this power is, in my opinion, unethical. It implies that as president one could intentionally and knowingly commit crimes and then afterward pardon himself allowing a never-ending cycle of illegal activity that can never be prosecuted. It would be legal invulnerability by taking advantage of a loophole. Constitutional scholars, the courts and Congress should close this loophole. It shouldn't be possible for a president, governor or any elected or appointed official in the USA to pardon themselves.

I can't believe we are at a point in America's history when we are even talking about this.

Yet Trump claimed that the only way he could lose was if the election was stolen. How could he possibly know that? He couldn't. It wasn't a belief, it was a strategy. — GRWelsh

:up:

The possibility of Trump winning the election in 2024 and making all of his legal troubles go away as if by waving a magic wand is absurd. — GRWelsh

Many of us thought that the idea of Trump getting elected in the first place was absurd. There must be magic wand out there somewhere.

Trump says he expects indictment in 2020 election probe

Former US President Donald Trump has said he expects to be arrested by a federal investigation into the January 6 riot at the Capitol and efforts to challenge the results of the 2020 election.

...

In a post on his Truth Social platform, Mr Trump claimed that he had been sent a letter "stating that I am a TARGET of the January 6th Grand Jury investigation, and giving me a very short 4 days to report to the Grand Jury, which almost always means an Arrest and Indictment."

Fake electors just got charged in Michigan.

:cool:

This indictement is the Big One. All the others are serious, for sure, but even being charged with attempting to prevent the transition of power must be seen as enormously consequential. I mean, really, how could someone under indictment for trying to subvert the Presidential election realistically run for President? 2024 is going to be one hell of a year in US politics.

It is hard to understand how this self-aggrandising jokester troll, this white Don King, this boxing promoter became President. It is even harder to understand the degree to which his victory caused the entire world to lose its' mind.

Short of a bullet to his skull, the efforts to remove and keep the boxing promoter from power have not been constrained by any norms of morality. As a result, the already hollowed out shell of US democracy circa 2016, is so damaged today that even the performative constitutional rituals are beyond its ability.

If would be one thing If the wild animus were directed solely at just his one odd man. The hate is not really for him it is towards that sizeable portion of the electorate that persistently supports him and will not be budge.

The mutual contempt between those that hate this man and for those who support him is not reconcilable.

This indictement is the Big One. All the others are serious, for sure, but even being charged with attempting to prevent the transition of power must be seen as enormously consequential. I mean, really, how could someone under indictment for trying to subvert the Presidential election realistically run for President? 2024 is going to be one hell of a year in US politics. — Wayfarer

I'd say Georgia is more important. If Trump wins the next election then he's obviously going to pardon himself. Or if another Republican wins then they might pardon him.

It will be interesting to see what this latest indictment is for. If it’s anything like the rest, it’s some deep-state neocon piffle, or some obscure and archaic law once used to jail dissidents back at the turn of the 20th century. They probably found something he said that can be misconstrued by deep-state sophists as criminal or untoward activity, some word-crime, like every other complaint about Trump that has hitherto existed.

Meanwhile, Biden is trying to jail his political opponents. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The hate is not really for him it is towards that sizeable portion of the electorate that persistently supports him and will not be budge. — yebiga

MAGA is losing the culture wars at all levels. Despite being overwhelmingly Christian, MAGA is very much "of the world" and obsessed with their idealized 1950's view of when America was "great". They're so emotionally invested in this, they can't think straight and let a man like Trump become their champion.

What did you think of Trump praising Xi Jinping?

It will be interesting to see what this latest indictment is for. — NOS4A2

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/special-counsels-target-letter-trump-2020-election-probe-cites-three-f-rcna95096

The letter that former President Donald Trump received from special counsel Jack Smith informing him that he is a target of the federal investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election mentions three federal statutes related to the deprivation of rights, conspiracy to defraud the U.S., and tampering with a witness.

What did you think of Trump praising Xi Jinping?

I thought it was a good move. If you alienate someone from the world stage, as Biden likes to do, you eliminate any room for negotiations or improvement. The result is war.

The context surrounding the statutes cited in the target letter is unclear, and their inclusion in the letter doesn't necessarily mean Trump will be charged with related counts or that an indictment would be limited to only those three statutes.

Have you ever criticized Trump here?

Meanwhile, Biden is trying to jail his political opponents.

What evidence is there to support this claim?

Biden appointed Garland, and later on Garland appointed Jack Smith, but that doesn't equate with "Biden is trying to jail his political opponents." The way it is supposed to work is that the President appoints the Attorney General who is then allowed to act independently. You can be skeptical of that... Sure. But unless you have evidence that Biden directed Garland to go after Trump or anyone else specifically for political reasons, I don't see how you can support your claim that "Biden is trying to jail his political opponents."

To me it looks like Biden has remained independent and aloof and has stayed appropriately quiet about the whole process. No one is above the law, and Trump brought all of these legal troubles on himself through his own arrogance and ignorance. The idea that Trump should be given endless free passes simply because he once was the President seems wrongheaded and unjustifiable... Unless you want to create a caste system where justice works differently for those at a certain level.

I think there is plenty of evidence that Trump has been given preferential treatment by not being in jail already. If it was anybody else handling the classified documents the way he did and refusing to give them back and obstructing that investigation, they would be in prison.

Always worth remembering the facts: Trump tried to overthrow a fair election. He continues to lie about it. His lies led to an insurrection.

He should have been hung for treason years ago.

He should have been hung for treason years ago. — Mikie

:100: :up:

:100:

If Trump wins the next election…. — Michael

Do you really think that’s even conceivable? He’s only ever won one election, every election since has been on a downward trajectory. As is well known, his influence cost the Republican Party dearly at the MidTerms. There’s a hard core of support who will never waver but the swing vote, surely, will not favour him. Even if he is the eventual candidate, which is unlikely in the extreme, in my view.

MAGA is losing the culture wars at all levels. Despite being overwhelmingly Christian, MAGA is very much "of the world" and obsessed with their idealized 1950's view of when America was "great". They're so emotionally invested in this, they can't think straight and let a man like Trump become their champion. — RogueAI

Who is this MAGA, what are these Culture wars, and this Christian 1950s view of the world. All of this resembles a theatrical pastiche that defies a rational definition. What we have is two sizeable proportions of the electorate in opposition holding increasingly juvenile, antagonistic and irreconcilable views.

Only in this schoolyard scrap the faculty have decided to cheer it on. They've opened a book on the result. There is a daily newsletter detailing every blow.

The saddest part to all of this is observing so many people ,for whom I've held the highest esteem, abandon their intellectual honesty, ethical mores, and personal dignity to star-jump into this sewer.

If these last few strange years have proven anything at all, it is that belonging to a group is no less primal than our need for food, shelter and procreation. Perhaps, the best proof of our physical evolution is just this raw herd survival instinct.