I think so. You do get taught about religions for the purposes of normalising them and the people who practice other ones. — fdrake

No. This is about normalising the idea that people can change sex, can be born in the wrong body that there are 100's of valid gender identities.

This is normalising sterilisation of children via puberty blockers and genital mutilation. This is making vulnerable and persuadable children question their own identity and be set on an unnecessary medical pathway. It should absolutely be out of schools.

If trans is taught in schools then so should detrans and the increasing cases of people who regret identifying as the opposite sex and chopped off body parts and did irreversible damage to their body. The increasing number of gay men who due to internalised homophobia chopped their penises off and now regret it.

What exactly are you attempting to normalise? Rejecting biology? Gender religion?

Also you need to explain to young girls why hormonal school boys should be given access to their changing rooms.

We've had this discussion before, and it proved impossible to have it in good faith. So I shall leave it. This may come off as patronising, but I promise you the intention is genuine. The last time you had this discussion, it also seemed profoundly distressing for you, are you sure it's a good idea to engage in it?

Yes, in the context of comparative religion or comparative cultural instruction. Those are fairly advanced subjects. I agree with instruction at this level. — Pantagruel

How young do you think it should start?

I remember starting it at 6 for other cultures and religions (we had India and Islam at that time). Seems about right to me. Like children's stories with two dads or two mums. It seems there's a fair few trans friendly children's books!

We've had this discussion before, and it proved impossible to have it in good faith. — fdrake

What do you mean?

Again, I really resent having to sound similar to a right-wing bigot. — Mikie

Also you need to explain to young girls why hormonal school boys should be given access to their changing rooms. — Andrew4Handel

:roll:

Case in point.

This is an existential issue. There is now something like a war (for reality) going on. About preserving the truth and bodily integrity and mass co-oercion to a quasi religious ideology.

Personally I think anyone supporting gender ideology is now participating a crime against humanity. You can try and censor people but gender critical people have their own spaces and spheres of influence now.

I cannot tolerate people lying to my face about reality. I believe in the truth and gender ideology has no truth value. The mass mutilation and sterilisation of vulnerable people via this ideology is a historical significant atrocity.

You can try and live in a "post-truth" reality if you want but I never will.

The tide is turning and people are waking up and fighting back. You cannot put the lid back on the dissent. It is actually a frightening because this is the biggest denial of truth and reality I think has ever happened. It is not a small act to call a man "she" it is a major lie and misogynistic gaslighting that compromises actual woman, their rights, healthcare and boundaries.

This is on of the things I am most passionate about for various reasons but the main one is people lying to my face and trying to make me lie. The lying on Wikipedia. The propaganda and lies from the medical industries.

I disagree with religions but no one is forcing me to partake in their religious rituals like this or endorse their religious beliefs etc

Things get wound up pretty quickly, don't they?

So many people who think they know what is best. And some of them might even be right. But they can't all be right.

My point, I was initially friendly and supportive of this movement, and in a real world situation, I would have even have stuck my neck out to advocate for or defend someone I saw being discriminated against. Now, not so much. So the the way this gone has had the opposite effect intended for me. And that is a real social consequence, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been alienated.

But when it comes to things like pregnancy, must we all go along with the insanity in order to not be deemed transphobic? Again, I really resent having to sound similar to a right-wing bigot. — Mikie

I know the feeling. Nowadays I have what I call the "Internal Twitter". It's a kind of intrusive bad faith interpretation. If anything could be construed as prejudiced, even by someone who's concern trolling, the Internal Twitter will flag that for me.

My Internal Twitter informs me that:

Reflexively judging the adoption of new and more inclusive use of words can only ever be bigoted. Why don't you want trans bodies to be included in medical terms when they apply to everyone? Do trans people not count as part of "everyone" because they're a minority group?

My internal Academic Left Youtube Reel responds:

The instinctive disgust felt above based on two equivocations. The first equivocation is assuming that changing that language is required to be inclusive - in fact it could very well be a cynical attempt to appear inclusive while keeping legitimately prejudicial institutional processes in place. The second is that a negative feeling toward the above suffices to demonstrate that the person is prejudiced, more context would be needed to infer that. Do you have the context to infer the person you're talking to is prejudiced? Or a justification that it can be assumed by default in the present discursive context?

I am willing to bet the Internal Twitter is a widespread phenomenon. And it is a problem. Because it's exhausting:

Now, not so much. So the the way this gone has had the opposite effect intended for me. And that is a real social consequence, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been alienated. — Pantagruel

And the wise, like Pantagruel, either tune out or see it for what, most of the time, it is. Outrage pornography and avoidant fear. A moral panic.

But they can't all be right. — Pantagruel

Can't they? In a pit of lava, the next stepping stone is as valuable as the last, be it sunk or not.

My sense is that only a small portion of the transgender movement consists of people who will genuinely benefit from adopting the label.

A larger portion seems to consist of:
1. people who carry trauma from childhood in which their individuality was not accepted (feminine men, masculine women, homosexuals, lesbians, etc.)
2. children/young adults who had no idea what they were doing
3. sexual deviants
4. parties with ulterior motives, like pharmaceutical companies and surgery clinics (hence the movement's superb marketing)

I'll probably be called bigotted for pointing this out, but this is genuinely what I see, and my stomach churns at the implications.

I think many of the people posting here would benefit from making friends with a trans person or a person who has a different gender identity from themselves.

The list - obviously- wouldn't include hypersexualized characters like ↪Michael's hunky fireman. — Tzeentch

This dramatised example of a cis male, dressed as a female, playing agony aunt and giving advice to children, I assume would make your 'acceptable' list, if 'The Mrs Doubtfire show' was a real show on TV today:


There is always the interesting ideas of:

1. How would you react to finding out that one of your close female friends was born a man or vice versa and they were always too terrified to tell you?
2. How would you react to finding out that someone you really were attracted to, did not have the genitalia you were expecting. As a cis person, would you feel automated in your compulsion to now hate them?
3. How would you deal with your father/mother/son/daughter declaring themselves trans?

I think we often have to bring the situation a lot closer to our personal selves, in any way we can, to see if there really be personal monsters there.
Many many so called god believers soon act like their god often has a second name, 'zilla.'
They quickly go from a god of peace and love to a god zilla of anti-difference.
Is it so difficult, to start with the premise of 'vive la difference.'
Surely solutions to the the toilet, sports and protected female spaces issues can be found, that satisfies as many of the stakeholders as possible.
Surely extreme comments such as:

This is an existential issue. There is now something like a war (for reality) going on. About preserving the truth and bodily integrity and mass co-oercion to a quasi religious ideology.

Personally I think anyone supporting gender ideology is now participating a crime against humanity. You can try and censor people but gender critical people have their own spaces and spheres of influence now. — Andrew4Handel

exemplifies the 'irrational' path we must all avoid when considering trans issues.

My sense is that only a small portion of the transgender movement consists of people who will genuinely benefit from adopting the label.

A larger portion seems to consist of:
1. people who carry trauma from childhood in which their individuality was not accepted (feminine men, masculine women, homosexuals, lesbians, etc.)
2. children/young adults who had no idea what they were doing
3. sexual deviants
4. parties with ulterior motives, like pharmaceutical companies and surgery clinics (hence the movement's superb marketing) — Tzeentch

Larger by what metric? I'm not going call you bigoted but I am going to call you out on a rather, at first glance, baseless characterization of the whole movement. Did you get this from a peer reviewed study? A survey? Some purely emotional concern from years of watching your favorite forms of media?

Perhaps you should rephrase it in a different context as indicating that these kinds of people could be in the movement and leave out the guesstimation as to its size unless you do have something substantial in your back pocket. Just a note here.

Five years ago, I was positively disposed to the issue, but the way it has been weaponized, anything to do with trans now has a really negative aura from me. Previously, had the opportunity arisen, I would have strongly defended any trans person I saw or knew was subject to prejudice (as I have defended vulnerable people in the past). I no longer feel like that. My goodwill has been alienated. — Pantagruel

Trans issues are not going to 'go away' because you and/or others have switched from having a more benevolent stance towards 'them.' The issues of all minority groups, remain, as long as they have existent members. I personally find the support that many Islamists have for child marriage and when it is acceptable to consummate such, far far more personally horrifying than any trans issue I am aware of.

This dramatised example of a cis male, dressed as a female, playing agony aunt and giving advice to children, I assume would make your 'acceptable' list, if 'The Mrs Doubtfire show' was a real show on TV today: — universeness

Sure. I see nothing wrong with that.

So where would your criteria draw the line in telling stories to children, from the following:


https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/A1IP1NkhFgL._RI_.jpg



Which of these images should we make sure children are most afraid of?

Which of these images should we make sure children are mist afraid of? — universeness

I'm unsure what that sentence means, but obviously the man dressed as a female prostitute is inappropriate for children.

Tim Curry has read many a children's story.

So it's just certain forms of clothing the children should be made to fear because you associate the image of Frank-en-furter with female prostitution rather than what the writer of the rocky horror show intended, a transexual from Transylvania who (in the story) was actually an alien visitor in disguise.
Can you not see that you brought your own interpretation to that image in particular?
Does the lead singer of twisted sister not also look like a hooker?
Why do you assume the clown or 'tootsie' is not trans?

So it's just certain forms of clothing the children should be made to fear... — universeness

No. It's simply that (hyper)sexuality has no place in a children's classroom.

Does the lead singer of twisted sister not also look like a hooker? — universeness

Somewhat. I'd say sexualized rockstars are inappropriate for children too.

Why do you assume the clown or 'tootsie' is not trans? — universeness

I didn't. Clowns just aren't inappropriate for children so I didn't see anything objectionable.

Cn you not see that you brought your own interpretation to that image in particular? — universeness

I honestly think what we're witnessing here are your interpretations of my views.

You think I have a problem with transgenders, which I do not.

No, you are misunderstanding my purpose here. You asked if it was 'normal' for a transvestite to read a story to children. I am trying to suggest to you that your concern is based on irrational fear, based on your own interpretation of what are conservative notions of social 'norms.'
I think most children are a lot more socially intelligent than many 'conservative' adults.
What dangers do you think children are being placed in when they are being read a story by a man dressed as a woman or a female character?

What dangers do you think children are being placed in when they are being read a story by a man dressed as a woman or a female character? — universeness

It's hard to interpret this as anything other than a deliberate misrepresentation of my views.

Can you not try harder? Have you ossified when it comes to your notions of conservative norms?

Can you not try harder? — universeness

Let me remind you of an exchange we had not too long ago.

This dramatised example of a cis male, dressed as a female, playing agony aunt and giving advice to children, I assume would make your 'acceptable' list, if 'The Mrs Doubtfire show' was a real show on TV today: — universeness

Sure. I see nothing wrong with that. — Tzeentch

Why don't you try a little harder yourself?

Have you ossified when it comes to your notions of conservative norms? — universeness

Ah, I called it:

I honestly think what we're witnessing here are your interpretations of my views. — Tzeentch

No point in continuing this conversation.

It seems that if a trans person dresses like Mrs Doubtfire, Tootsie, a clown, a David Bowie androgenous character etc then they make your approved list for reading stories to children. BUT a man dressed as frankenfurter or like the lead singer of twisted sister is to you, abnormal!!! and the children are in some kind of danger you have yet to explain. Are you worried about the imagery or message in this video? Should we protect children from it?

Trans issues are not going to 'go away' because you and/or others have switched from having a more benevolent stance towards 'them.' The issues of all minority groups, remain, as long as they have existent members. I personally find the support that many Islamists have for child marriage and when it is acceptable to consummate such, far far more personally horrifying than any trans issue I am aware of. — universeness

And more important, since that is a question of protection of the vulnerable.

I wonder if the whole trans issue isn't just another rider on the entitlement bus. Everyone's got problems, doesn't make them social causes. The more I have to waste my time thinking about it the more I'm moving from being a passive to an active opponent.

There are several gay men on YouTube now who talk about the regret and pain of having themselves castrated and their penises removed due to internalised homphobia and being caught up in gender ideology and misled.
It has now been revealed that a teenager in Europe died after having a vaginoplasty on his penis that was irreversibly shrunk by puberty blockers which makes the already harmful surgery much more complicated and caused him to due from his injuries and infections.
Puberty blockers chemically castrate children and as Marci Bowers trans identified surgeon has admitted leaves children Anorgasmic and unable to reach sexual fulfillment as adults.
There are no protected female or lesbian spaces. Homosexuality has been redefined as a genital preference. Autistic people are over represented in the trans population. I have met two trans people through my local autism services and two other trans people I knew displayed autistic traits which I now recognise after my own diagnosis.

Welcome to life as a human being. Picking a side on an issue is what folks do. I prefer you to choose your side, instead of fence sitting, at least you are voting as you see fit. I simply stand in opposition to your position. The debate will hopefully continue or else the different sides can war towards M.A.D. What do YOU want to do?

There are several gay men on YouTube now who talk about the regret and pain of having themselves castrated and their penises removed due to internalised homphobia and being caught up in gender ideology and misled. — Andrew4Handel

There are many w on YouTube now who talk about the regret and pain of being w and having their x removed due to internalised y and being caught up in z ideology and misled.

You can fill in the variables as fits your current views. You could for example use:
w = christian(s)
x = scepticism
y = fear
z = woo woo

Just cause you say it with GUSTO Andrew, does not make you seem any less irrational on this issue imo.

There are many w on YouTube now who talk about the regret and pain of being w and having their x removed due to internalised y and being caught up in z ideology and misled. — universeness

Right. So you are not invalidating Andrew's claim, merely asserting that there are in fact many cases of people misconstruing their own wants and needs. Emphasizing the general truth of his underlying point (of which there is certainly some element of truth, unless you do want to attack the legitimacy of the purported youtube videos).

You said you find Islamic child marriage more horrifying this.

Now you seem to be mocking the reality of irreversible genital mutilation of gay, austic and gender confused young people. Or severely down playing it.

I have not seen a proliferation of other groups talking about similar regrets.
And this is called gender affirming health care ( a billion pound industry)
Woman face is black face. Transgender is the same principle as transracialism and trans ablism. Appropriating someone else's protected characteristics. No man should be given access to women's spaces and awards due distress with their birth sex. That is misogyny and gaslighting women. Other peoples identity and privacy should not be given away due to someone else's mental health. That does not happen in any other area of life.

I cannot invalidate the youtube examples Andrew cites, they in fact exist, but they are outliers, and do not significantly challenge trans issues.
Has the number of deconstructing christians destroyed christianity?
If there are enough of them one day, then perhaps the number of christians will reduce to zero, at some point in the distant future (I certainly hope so!).
I am more suggesting that Andrew should not get 'over-excited' about the small number of outliers he has came across in comparison with the number of trans folks who have no regrets at all, including all those trans folks on-line currently offering dialogue with all those who wish to engage in such.
Including you. Why not contact them and put your views to them.