@Andrew4Handel - you were warned about remarks like this before. Consider this a second warning.

In the interest of understanding, the specific moderation guideline you violated here is referring to gender reassignment surgery as "genital mutilation", which is a common transphobic canard.

As an example, talking about an uptick in people identifying as trans in recent years, as well as the ethics of administering gender reassignment surgery in the current way (or changes in the legislation), is still an allowable topic of discussion. Just do so with appropriate decorum. Something this sensitive must be discussed with sufficient sensitivity, calling gender affirmation therapy "genital mutilation" in blanket terms is not that.

Failure to comply may lead to a ban. You've now been warned twice.

This is all a distraction from the issue of gay men having their testicles removed and penises mutilated then regretting it which really has happened and is happening. — Andrew4Handel

What does being transgender have to do with gay men?

The increasing number of people regretting irreversible bodily damage due to identifying in as trans. These people are easy to find on You Tube prominent among them is Shapeshifter and Ritchie Herrin. Both gay men who experienced internalized homophobia and have no detransitionted. There are several more you can find including Chloe Cole child transitioner.

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

On average, 97% of people who are transgender are happy with their decision to transition. Only ~3% of trans people experience some form of regret, but may not detransition.

...

Well, why do people detransition? The main reason cited for detransition is social pressure. Recent research by Dr Jack Turban has found that around 90 per cent of people who return to their birth gender in the US don’t do so because of regret or dissatisfaction, but because of pressure from family, school, work, or society in general.

The National Center for Transgender Equality found that the most common reasons for detransitioning were lack of support at home, problems in the workplace, and harassment and discrimination.

Other reasons for detransition include exploring different gender identities, unrelated health issues, and financial complications.

Only 5% of people who detransitioned (0.4% of all trans people) did so because they felt the transition was not right for them. They have remained detransitioners.

You think the 0.4% of trans people who detransition because they made a mistake is sufficient grounds to oppose transition in the first place?

Or are you suggesting that transgender women just are men pretending to be women as an excuse to use women’s bathrooms and sexually assault them? — Michael

Transgender women are men. Caitlyn Jenner produced six children with "his" sperm and acknowledges being their father Anyone claiming to be living as the opposite sex is simply impersonating them. It is categorically impossible to change sex.

Being male or female is not a choice and womens spaces and sports were not intended for people's mental self perception but biological sex.

Yes women have been attacked in such situations so do your own research. All you are doing is defending lying and creating a society based on lies not on objective reality.

and are males and females with disorders of development. — Andrew4Handel

Is this not still a claim made by anti-gay individuals, who suggest gay men have a genetic disorder of development? I would assume you would find such a claim offensive, yes?

Transgender women are men. Caitlyn Jenner produced six children with "his" sperm and acknowledges being their father Anyone claiming to be living as the opposite sex is simply impersonating them. It is categorically impossible to change sex.

Being male or female is not a choice and womens spaces and sports were not intended for people's mental self perception but biological sex. — Andrew4Handel

I would strongly defend your right to express this view even though I basically disagree with it.

It would be incredibly cowardly of me to try to silence you, as if trans people need censorship in order to thrive.

It is categorically impossible to change sex. — Andrew4Handel

What do you mean by this? Are you just saying that it's impossible to change one's DNA? Nobody is saying otherwise. You're attacking a strawman.

Yes women have been attacked in such situations so do your own research. — Andrew4Handel

Women get attacked in all sorts of situations. But you're sidestepping the question. Are you trying to say that transgender women just want to use women's bathrooms because they want to sexually assault women?

You also haven't answered my question about the person in the photo. Simply by "trusting your senses", what bathroom should that person use?

Seems to me there's a legitimate debate over what to do with minors, if anything, to best help them navigate their sexual identity. The rest just seems like various ways of expressing disgust and contempt for trans people.

What does being transgender have to do with gay men? — Michael

I just explained it to you. In many ways. You are not listening and now you are spreading motivated propaganda.

Jack Turban is financially invested in trans ideology and their are no adequate detransition studies. Your sources all have an investment in promoting gender identity and no investment in critiquing their own standpoint. Detransition Reddit now has 47 thousand members and many recitals of the real reasons people transition and detransition none to do with family pressure.

Most studies promoting the success of gender have had to post retractions.

I as a vulnerable gay man from a homophobic religious cult and autistic could have sterilised myself and have had my genitals severed like Ritchie Herrin and ShapeShifter gay male detransitioners. Whilst you helped convince me I was a woman trapped in a man's body. It is ludicrous and frightening and you are clearly not listening.

You are not helping anyone even if you think you are. Telling people that they can live as the opposite sex as offering them false hope.

Seems to me there's a legitimate debate over what to do with minors, if anything, to best help them navigate their sexual identity — Baden

A lot of states have patient advocates for minors. I would leave the question with them and psychologists. Like with abortion, there may be cases where a person has to travel to get a surgical intervention.

Is this not still a claim made by anti-gay individuals, who suggest gay men have a genetic disorder of development? I would assume you would find such a claim offensive, yes? — universeness

What are you referring to? Intersex conditions are disorders of sexual development that affect people's development, reproductive systems among other things. They are not gender identities.

and their are no adequate detransition studies. — Andrew4Handel

If there are no adequate detransition studies then how can you claim that detransitioning is a significant problem?

Detransition Reddit now has 47 thousand members and many recitals of the real reasons people transition and detransition none to do with family pressure. — Andrew4Handel

So a subreddit membership count is the best evidence you have? That's more reliable than the actual studies that have been done?

I as a vulnerable gay man from a homophobic religious cult and autistic could have sterilised myself and have had my genitals severed like Ritchie Herrin and ShapeShifter gay male detransitioners. — Andrew4Handel

The fact that growing up in a homophobic, religious cult could have left you unable to recognize the difference between being a gay man and being a transgender woman isn't evidence that it is wrong to be accepting of transgenderism and medical transitioning.

This just shows that the problem is with homophobic, religious cults.

I think what conservatives fear is some kind of cultural shift that becomes self-fulfilling in that it leads rather than follows science. I don't think that fear is completely irrational though in some cases expressed concern for children might be just a cover for bigotry.

I'd say sexualized rockstars are inappropriate for children too. — Tzeentch

It’s interesting how such standards have shifted over the years. I dont think too many parents would have a problem with a hip-wiggling Elvis impersonator performing for young children today, or even a lipstick-wearing Bowie-type glam rocker. Male swimwear that once concealed the navel now exposes the ‘adonis belt’. I suspect that the awareness of gender that makes it possible for a 5 year old child to identify as trans implies a level of sophistication concerning sexuality that was unavailable to an earlier generation. This perhaps also makes it possible to distinguish between a sexual image in general and a harmful sexual image.

Only legal operations/medical processes are allowed. Only legal medications can be used. — universeness

That goes without saying. But legality is not the basis of medical legitimacy. Medical legitimacy implies legality. Certainly as a general principle. I don't see the point of this reasoning at all, to be honest.

Or every future public toilet can be built as a series of individual lockable units, with a WC and a small sink and mirror. No more gender specific toilets. Would that not solve the problem? — universeness

It would, although you would sacrifice benefits of scale for larger venues where multi-stall common facilities can service much higher-volumes of people (and who are reflective of the demographic that legitimates both the need and the response to the need). I'd say keep the gender-dual installations where needed, and ensure there is a locking bathroom for those needing family bathrooms, and others with special needs.

I am a socialist/secular humanist, so accommodating the needs and wishes of as many people in a community as possible, remains the main goal. — universeness

The greatest unity is the one which supports the greatest diversity is my credo. And we are all asked to make personal sacrifices in deference to the public good at certain times or in certain respects. And what one person considers a sacrifice someone else may not. So even having the best of motivations doesn't simplify things.

Not to mention the amusing impotency of such injunctions since, considering the ubiquity of the internet, most kids have probably seen porn before they hit their teens. But no! Not a public talk by a Tranny! The horror!

I think what conservatives fear is some kind of cultural shift that becomes self-fulfilling in that it leads rather than follows science. — Baden

That's an amazing insight. You're saying conservatives aren't just being assholes, but they have a legitimate concern.

But when it comes to minors, I think we're all stumped about irreversible interventions. I think we'd all like minors to wait until they're older. The concern that's been raised is that we know they become suicidal and they do commit suicide. If it means saving a person's life to allow gender reassignment? I'd say the answer is obvious.

What would a conservative say?

I as a vulnerable gay man from a homophobic religious cult and autistic could have sterilised myself and have had my genitals severed like Ritchie Herrin and ShapeShifter gay male detransitioners. Whilst you helped convince me I was a woman trapped in a man's body. It is ludicrous and frightening and you are clearly not listening. — Andrew4Handel

This is a step too far for me to comment on this issue any further to you Andrew.
You need to discuss such with those better qualified than I.

Ok, to steel man this, I think a conservative would say that opening up more space for what anyone can be can't be separated from enforcing what some people will be.

(Active social engineering dressed up as passive social accommodation.)

Another way to state their case is that there is a kind of ethical retrojection going on here. Liberals are fostering the grounds for a problem for which the solution is its own problem from a conservative point of view.

On the specific point of suicide and mental illness, they might claim utilitarian grounds that overall these tendencies may increase with availability of treatment according to a relative rather than absolute sense of deprivation.

Excuse multiple posts.

Ok, to steel man this, I think a conservative would say that opening up more space for what anyone can be can't be separated from enforcing what some people will be.

(Active social engineering dressed up as passive social accommodation.) — Baden

Affirming your right to be a Muslim is tantamount to forcing people to be Muslims? :chin:

Maybe it would help to know that Native Americans had transexuals, although they obviously didn't have hormone therapy or surgery. But apparently members of either sex could transition to the social role of the opposing sex. As for the surgery and hormones, what would be wrong with allowing that to work it's way out naturally? If it's really something good for people, that will become apparent. If it's a danger to them or society, that also will be revealed?

Another way to state their case is that there is a kind of ethical retrojection going on here. Liberals are fostering the grounds for a problem for which the solution is its own problem from a conservative point of view. — Baden

If anything, the woke outrage is a sideshow. For the most part, trans people do have rights. Large corporations in the US spray diversity education upon their employees to make sure they have fashion forward images. It's good for the bottom line, which means the ship has already sailed. All that's left is to worry over what children in Florida are taught about pronouns and the sensitive, but fairly rare problem of minors.

On the specific point of suicide and mental illness, they might claim utilitarian grounds that overall these tendencies may increase with availability of treatment according to a relative rather than absolute sense of deprivation. — Baden

I guess that's why I favor state patient advocates and psychologists. Let them figure it out.

Affirming your right to be a Muslim is tantamount to forcing people to be Muslims? — frank

A more accurate analogy might be that for the U.S. establishment to publically espouse the virtues of Islam, including in media, schools, and society generally would virtually guarantee more converts to Islam. Someone who wants less Muslims in society might justifiably be accused of Islamophobia but someone who resists the ethical injunction to want more is of a different category. To not want diversity for the sake of diversity or change for the sake of change is just part of the conservative mindset. Liberals sometimes neglect to recognize their own ideological commitments here in order to paint opposition to them as bigotry.

I guess that's why I favor state patient advocates and psychologists. Let them figure it out. — frank

Yes... but let's recognize they don't operate in an ideological vacuum. (Let me emphasise again, I'm being devil's advocate here to a degree.)

A more accurate analogy might be that for the U.S. establishment to publically espouse the virtues of Islam, including in media, schools, and society generally would virtually guarantee more converts to Islam — Baden

But that would be a violation of the first amendment. I don't think any government agencies are actually advising people to become trans, are they? Protecting their rights might make them come out of the closet, but I don't think it inspires people to make that kind of change. Is that what the conservative is arguing?

To not want diversity for the sake of diversity or change for the sake of change is just part of the conservative mindset. Liberals sometimes neglect to recognize their own ideological commitments here in order to paint opposition to them as bigotry. — Baden

Well, the first amendment protects everybody. If a conservative is disturbed by trans people, it's their right to speak up and let that be known. If liberals want to cry "bigot" they can do that as well.

Yes... but let's recognize they don't operate in an ideological vacuum. (Let me emphasise again, I'm being devil's advocate here to a degree.) — Baden

I understand that. I don't know of an ideal solution to the problems of young people who want to transition. I wish I did.

But that would be a violation of the first amendment. I don't think any government agencies are actually advising people to become trans, are they? — frank

No, but I think that conservatives think that the line between protecting trans rights and promoting trans lifestyles is blurred. Of course their unofficial spokespeople rarely manage to say anything about the subject without sounding like a-holes.

No, but I think that conservatives think that the line between protecting trans rights and promoting trans lifestyles is blurred. Of course their unofficial spokespeople rarely manage to say anything about the subject without sounding like a-holes. — Baden

:up:

To elaborate a little, where I sympathise with conservatives is that "trans rights" is not just some isolated ethical atom that they are obligated to unconditionally accept to maintain the rights / responsibilities balance of a free and open society and so consistently justify their own place in it, but a kind of valence whose pull reshapes the contours of social life and it's these somewhat unpredictably reshaped contours they are being asked to assent to.

My friends daughter is 14 and she now wants to be referred to as he and his chosen male name.
My friend and his wife are now going through a separation. I don't know if this issue has caused/aggravated the troubles between them. They have a second daughter.
They are now at the stage of discussing hormonal treatments, as a first stage.
He told me some of the details involved. It is a very slow paced process with many professionals involved.
Getting the required appointments/referrals within the current NHS crisis in the UK is greatly adding to the stresses involved. A very complicated situation for any family to deal with.
I know my friend is very quick to anger/fury at the moment when 'outsiders' offer him their general opinions on trans issues. A powder keg of emotions!

:up: Yep. I hold to the idea that gender is flexible. The trans people I know are just trying to live their best lives. I have friends, acquaintances and work colleagues who are 'trans' and like you, I see no reason to demonize and pillory.

Despite my desires for this thread to cool off some.

I'm what you would call 'ignorant' of the true science behind transgenderism. So are the scientists who study it. It's new. No one knows anything yet. This is what you would call an average, rational mindset or "take" on the subject. And as such, I happen to know sometimes certain males - either physically, mentally or both - can be described as 'feminine' more so than others. Just as certain females can be described as 'mannish' more so than others.

If my male child happens to be watching public television, sees an all-female ballerina performance, is mesmerized, and wants to put on a pink tutu and spin around, That's fine. If my female child sees a war movie and likes "killing the bad guys"/justice and wants to start dressing like G.I. Joe or otherwise becomes a tomboy. That's fine as well.

The disconnect is, and this is not meant to be extreme, but in either case I don't want the State or someone representative of the State to start running at them with a bottle of pills in one hand and a scalpel in the other telling a small child "there's something wrong with them" and as their parent I'm either morally, or if some have their way, perhaps even legally, abusive if I stand in the way of such. This is basically the most prominent argument or attitude a conservative individual would hold.

A significant majority of females become tomboys due to ostracization/alienation from the "popular girls". We are social creatures. Numerous studies from reputable and well-respected scientific institutions show, lack of "fitting in" can lead to severe distress, confusion, and quite often death. If you're not one of the popular girls or boys you're somehow less of a girl or boy. This is an observable psychological phenomenon. Where insults such as "coward", "loser", or "freak" come from.

If you don't fit in or are shunned from what you intrinsically and biologically are inclined to want to be part of, it makes you - especially if you have a young, developing mind - think you might be "something else".

I'm not saying transgenderism is not a real thing. I'm saying due to the infancy of the field of study and research gathered, along with the myriad of other physiological possibilities and conditions that very well could be transient or otherwise unrelated to true gender dysphoria, one should not be so "gung-ho" about assessing if the gender of a male or female under the age of 18 is, wrong basically. So as to avoid a misdiagnosis and as a result unnecessary series of life-changing medical procedures that only worsen or perhaps even create a condition that could otherwise be remedied or very well never existed in the first place.

I don't think that's an unreasonable or inconsiderate position to hold. Do you?

Also: This doesn't happen (too) often, but in some divorces sometimes one parent acts with malice toward the other to the point of psychologically damaging the child, typically indirectly. Sometimes directly. See Parental Alienation Syndrome (PAS), Malicious Parent Syndrome (MPS). That's more than enough to fuel the fire of confusion of worth and esteem and as a result identity. Just saying.

I'm what you would call 'ignorant' of the true science behind transgenderism. So are the scientists who study it. It's new. No one knows anything yet. — Outlander

It's a newish area of study, but it isn't new. See transgender history.