I've seen "beyond being," i.e., beyond existence, taken to mean that the source and foundation of all existence must itself be, in some sense, independent of existence... — Art48
Plotinus's philosophy is difficult to elucidate, precisely because what it seeks to elucidate is a manner of thinking that precedes what one terms discursive thought. Discursive thought is the sort of thinking we do most often in a philosophical discussion or debate, when we seek to follow a series of premises and intermediate conclusions to a final conclusion. In such a thinking, our minds move from one point to the next, as if each point only can be true after we have known the truth of the point preceding it. The final point is true, only because we have already built up one by one a series of points preceding it logically that are also true. In the same way, the meaning of the sentence I am now speaking only builds itself up by the addition of each word, until coming to its conclusion it makes a certain sense built of the words from which it is constituted.
Because discursive thinking is within ordinary time, it is not capable of thinking all its points or saying all its words in the very same moment. But Plotinus wishes to speak of a thinking that is not discursive but intuitive, i.e. that it is knowing and what it is knowing are immediately evident to it. There is no gap then between thinking and what is thought--they come together in the same moment, which is no longer a moment among other consecutive moments, one following upon the other. Rather, the moment in which such a thinking takes place is immediately present and without difference from any other moment, i.e. its thought is no longer chronological but eternal. To even use names, words, to think about such a thinking is already to implicate oneself in a time of separated and consecutive moments (i.e. chronological) and to have already forgotten what it is one wishes to think, namely thinking and what is thought intuitively together. — Plotinus, Class Lecture Notes
↪Art48
There is one monism: "the truth". It remains the same regardless of what we make of it. As its the truth - it doesn't change. Science is not equal to the truth as ethics, spirituality, consciousness, art, religion and philosophy also exist and aren't explicable by scientific method (one tool out of many).
However they all have overlap, and the overlap portends to the truth. — Benj96
I agree, mostly, but have one question: if there’s a truth about ethics, would that imply that moral values are objective, not subjective? — Art48
I accept Hume’s is-ought distinction which rules out objective moral values. But if we choose a goal—human flourishing, for instance—then science provides the map of reality and we can use that map to determine optimum paths to the goal. The optimum paths imply moral values, i.e., the best way to behave to bring about human flourishing. — Art48
For Materialists, the term "Universe" is the ultimate reality. But philosophers have long postulated that there may be more than meets the eye. And we "see" that More in imagination. In some contexts, I call it "Ideality" as a parallel to "Reality". Since that unreal something More cannot be empirically proven to exist, I suspect that some philosophers created the Ontological term Monism (one substance) to represent both the physical substance of Universe, and the metaphysical substance*1 of The Whole --- including whatever gods may be, and abstract/ideal principles, such as Logos.Monism: the idea that only one supreme reality exists. Why posit monism? — Art48
It occurs to me a tendency towards monism is built into our language when we recognize universals.Monism: the idea that only one supreme reality exists. Why posit monism? — Art48
IMHO, Monism contradicts common sense as well other things such as concept of dukkha taught in Buddhism."Why posit an ultimate ground? Is not what is sufficient? Is the world too imperfect for it to exist without it depending on something else? Does being ungrounded cause vertigo? A yawning abyss one is too fearful to approach?" – Fooloso4
From the thread “Inmost Core and Ultimate Ground”
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/14220/inmost-core-and-ultimate-ground
Monism: the idea that only one supreme reality exists. Why posit monism?
Science
Science tends towards monism. There are unnumbered physical objects but they are all composed of about 92 naturally occurring elements, which at one time were thought to be composed of 3 elements (proton, neutron, electron) but are today believed to be based on the 17 entities of the Standard Model. Science is searching for a “theory of everything” which unites quantum mechanics and relativity. If found, a theory of everything might provide a monist theory of all physical objects.
Philosophy
From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s entry on Plotinus
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plotinus
A central axiom of that tradition was the connecting of explanation with reductionism or the derivation of the complex from the simple. That is, ultimate explanations of phenomena and of contingent entities can only rest in what itself requires no explanation. If what is actually sought is the explanation for something that is in one way or another complex, what grounds the explanation will be simple relative to the observed complexity. Thus, what grounds an explanation must be different from the sorts of things explained by it. According to this line of reasoning, explanantia that are themselves complex, perhaps in some way different from the sort of complexity of the explananda, will be in need of other types of explanation. In addition, a plethora of explanatory principles will themselves be in need of explanation. Taken to its logical conclusion, the explanatory path must finally lead to that which is unique and absolutely uncomplex. — Art48
Thanks. I know very little about Plotinus and Neoplatonism, but the notion of "unitive vision" seems to be common to both Early Greek and Eastern philosophies. I suppose that today we would call it subjective "Intuition", as opposed to objective "Observation".Plotinus' philosophy was enormously influential on the successive ages of philosophy, up until and including Hegel, although subsequently deprecated, at least in English-speaking philosophy. The point being, that something like this 'unitive vision' is required to make sense of philosophical monism, if it is not to be reduced to a kind of caricature which takes 'the one' to consist of a kind of agglomeration of everything that exists. It is within the context of that unitive understanding that the distinction between 'what is real' and 'what exists' is, at least, intelligible, and which provides a framework for the meaning of monism. — Wayfarer
I mentioned the book The One, by Heinrich Pas, earlier in the thread - see this Aeon essay by the author with a synopsis of some of the ideas in that book. (Also worth taking the time to peruse the reader comments and author responses.) — Wayfarer
. I suppose that today we would call it subjective "Intuition", as opposed to objective "Observation". — Gnomon
Q: What did Heidegger say about the impact of 'objectification' of consciousness?
A: Heidegger argues that objectification involves reducing the world to a collection of objects that are available for manipulation and control. This way of looking at the world has the effect of distancing us from the world and from our own being. We come to see ourselves and others as objects, and our relationship to the world becomes one of mastery and domination.
According to Heidegger, this way of thinking and relating to the world obscures the true nature of things and leads to the forgetfulness of being. Instead of being attuned to the world and open to its possibilities, we become caught up in a narrow, instrumental way of thinking that limits our understanding and our experience.
Heidegger's solution to this problem involves a return to a more authentic way of being in the world, which he calls "being-toward-death." This involves facing up to the fact of our own mortality and recognizing the finitude and fragility of our existence. By embracing our own mortality and our own vulnerability, we can come to a deeper understanding of ourselves and our relationship to the world.
I put a question to ChatGPT:
Q: What did Heidegger say about the impact of 'objectification' of consciousness? — Wayfarer
Heidegger believed that the human subject had to be reconceived in an altogether new way, as “being-in-the-world.” Because this notion represented the very opposite of the Cartesian “thing that thinks,” the idea of consciousness as representing the mind’s internal awareness of its own states had to be dropped. Heidegger makes a strong case that consciousness should not be considered either neurons firing in the brain or some substance in itself; instead, both of these understandings are inauthentic as they fail to recognize the primordial worlding that is necessary for consciousness to understand itself in either manner1.
In other words, Heidegger believed that objectification of consciousness is problematic because it fails to recognize the primordial worlding that is necessary for consciousness to understand itself
Why Heidegger came to my mind, I'm not sure, as I'm by no means an expert in his philosophy, but I think he too grasps that this kind of insight requires a different way of being in the world. The point being, there are precedents in philosophy for the idea, but it takes some study to begin to grasp what it means. — Wayfarer
Ok. I thought some expressions of monism (idealism) understand humans as being dissociated metacognitive alters from the one source, but still with their own experiences. No reason why we shouldn't do the right thing by ourselves? — Tom Storm
Since my personal experience has been solely from the "subject-object" perspective, I have difficulty even imagining what a God-object perspective would look like. Also, I've had no "transpersonal" cognition. And what "insights" I have had are easily dismissed as mere opinion, since I have no "intersubjective validation". Is extra-sense-perception something that can be cultivated?. I suppose that today we would call it subjective "Intuition", as opposed to objective "Observation". — Gnomon
I'd question that - it is because it is interpreted through the subject-object perspective that we fail to grasp its import. This interpretation subjectivizes or relativizes insight, making it a personal matter, whereas its import is precisely that it is transpersonal. Many will say that there is 'no intersubjective validation' available for such insights, but that is because today's criteria are generally empirical, recognizing only what can be observed and validated by sense-perception. — Wayfarer
Are such extra-personal insights an aspect of your personal experience? — Gnomon
: the ability to convert "sense perception" into mental conception (imagination ; to see what's not really there ; abstract mind pictures). — Gnomon
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