"No dearer is man's life than that which he holds dear.
Take care that you hold not your precious life as cheap as gold"

If you put your values on "my actions and life and all my accomplishments" then death will take it all away and nihilism is inevitable. That's why people create consolations like afterlife, so one doesn't feel the nihility.

When the Buddha learned that one day he too will grow old and die he renounced everything so he can find "that which survives death".

So everyone has essentially two paths:
The temporary satisfaction of the worldly matter which end up in Nihility.
or The search for that within oneself which belongs to Eternity.

Are you not attracted to the complete and total ownership of your own wonder and awe? Why assign any credit for such to a god? — universeness

I have not always been a theist in fact I was a god bashing atheist myself … ah those were the days. But again I was a youngster then so my conversion was a slow and gradual one with each experience leading me to question some firmly held assumptions of my atheistic views.

As these relate to personal life events I will leave them out but even my rational mind back then could not just dismiss them as mere coincidence.

It kinda was staring me in the face so to speak.

However despite being faced with overwhelming awe, the kind of awe that would lead one to ascribe it to providence rather than a mere beautiful sunset I still retained my rationality to an extent as well as my scepticism but in the face of such experience they were kinda moot.

I think I cried when I had my first religious/spiritual experience as an atheist that’s how strong and magnificent it was to my non-believing eyes.

I wasn’t no born again Christian type either just same old me whose atheism was about to be rocked to its very foundations.

As the moment itself passed and faded into memory it would be only to easy to dismiss it as some sort of emotional anomaly.

Just as any other person I’m able to view nature and it’s wonders from a secular viewpoint and experience the same awe and wonder that they do without bringing god into it.

But by virtue of my religious experience at the time I remain grateful for that very experience which I guess changed my life forever. It has not elevated nor reduced my appreciation of nature and the diversity of it all but merely expanded my mindset to the possibility of something greater than I.

As the moment itself passed and faded into memory it would be only to easy to dismiss it as some sort of emotional anomaly. — invicta

I have heard many individuals describe such experiences, in great detail.
This kind of witnessing has almost zero value as evidence of god.
Why was your experience momentary instead of continuous?
If you don't provide the details of your experience then the first assumption is that you were probably wacked out on scooby snacks or something like it. If no such chemical circumstances were involved and you were not under some kind of mental trauma, then the chances are, that you are just misinterpreting an experience.
What's more likely? A deity chose to contact you alone, and allow only you to experience it's presence or it's ability to communicate with a human, and has never re-established contact with you since, or you misinterpreted an experience?
Or do you have these experiences regularly?

But by virtue of my religious experience at the time I remain grateful for that very experience which I guess changed my life forever. — invicta

To be honest, I am a little disappointed. If you surrendered your scepticism and your atheism, for the price of an experience you don't even feel comfortable enough, to publicly describe in detail, then I think you surrendered your atheism very cheaply.
Why would your story be any different to those who claim to have been abducted by aliens, experimented on and then returned to their lives? For that matter, how do you know it was not aliens who were involved in what you experienced?

This kind of witnessing has almost zero value as evidence of god. — universeness

Please do not construe this as any sort of evidence for God’s existence as some kinds of proof. I have very little interest in preaching nor am I inclined to convert anyone. I’d probably insult your intelligence if I tried.

I was merely trying to answer your question as to whether I can look at nature with the awe and wonder without invoking god which I believe I did.

I find the dialogue between a theist and atheist has little middle ground. Less so than between an agnostic in any case.

And oh yes I’ve had more experiences since as a way of reminding me

I hope I have not implied in my previous post that I am somehow special by virtue of having a shall we say divine experience…there’s probably many others too. After all being humble is a defining Christian trait.

I was merely trying to answer your question as to whether I can look at nature with the awe and wonder without invoking god which I believe I did. — invicta

I can't follow your rationale. Any awe and wonder you experience when viewing the flora and fauna of nature or the structures you can view in space via the Hubble images or the JWST, are surely not as awesome or wonderous as your 'supernatural 'experiences. Can you give me an example of any actual information that your esoteric 'experiences' have imparted to you?
What good are your esoteric experiences if they do not enable you to make much of a difference to the lives of others or perhaps even your own. I could even argue that such has harmed you, as it has caused you to take what I would consider backward steps into woo woo.

Firstly whatever I may have experienced were for me alone. I do not see the reason for such events to be some sort of catalyst to me fulfilling some sort of prophecy or such as a religious leader, Dalai Llama etc. Plus there’s plenty of delusional nutcases who will take on the task spiritual experience or not.

I have no ambitions to start a cult anytime soon…

Perhaps when I look at Hubble or nature you could say I’m looking at it differently when I’m seeing the creators handy work where someone else sees awe-inspiring natural phenomena…

In any case the appreciation for it remains the same god or no god.

But anyway, I’ve got an appointment with a few green men who wish to further probe my clever ass.

Why would these 'men' be green? Anyway, enjoy! Again, thanks for the exchange.

Why not just believe in "eternal life" and leave g/G out of it? Eternalism rather than theism (i.e. "higher power"-ism)? :chin:

For the simple fact that once you die your consciousness goes with it. Akin to what happens when you go to sleep. Similarly the invocation of God helps in the same sense of what happens when you wake up from sleep. You regain your awareness and consciousness.

You've lost me. I don't see how "the invocation of God" (which one?) "helps regain ... awareness and consciousness".

I wish to tackle your question properly I think I rushed my last response a tad.

Again all my thoughts below are of a speculative nature as neither do I claim to know the mind of G nor the nature of eternity.

Firstly you don’t know that you’ve died, your self-awareness has been switched off. Thoughts, cognition post death occurs only in the minds of other living entities. Consciousness then persists outside of your mind in other minds does it not ?

We do not know enough about the nature of sleep or death itself as to what happens to consciousness. We do know that it stops and is undetectable by other beings or ECG.

As a human being your awareness is not unique to you. Your memories and experiences maybe.

Others have eyes which perceive the tree in the same way. What separates and makes you unique from the next person is that perhaps an apple landed on their head. You were the witness and the other guy experienced some kinda surprise. This is where different beings develop different memories etc yet awareness is universal to all beings.

The switching off of such awareness is no special thing at all in fact it happens more frequently than people are willing to admit. We all experience moments of voids in our consciousness, auto-pilot or the more familiar example of sleep.

the point is this, consciousness appears to be eternal with the human subject being merely a manifestation of it.

Now assume a telepathic link between to human beings self-identity dissolves from a purely mental point of view as such linked beings would be unable to distinguish who thought the thought.

In the same way our personal identity disappears with death our consciousness could persist.

Of course this is highly, highly unprovable if not wildly speculative.

Yet the power of creation and to think a thought is something we cannot consciously or deliberately choose. That choice is simply the illusion of free will

And how does "the invocation of god help (anyone) regain awareness and consciousness"?

I have no idea …perhaps it’s an automatic process post death and no god required. (Contradicting my earlier assertion here)

Or if we equate eternal consciousness with G then the above applies just as well. The cessation of awareness on a personal level does not rule out this universal awareness (g if you like)

Again talking about awareness and consciousness as if it is a disembodied thing helps to grasp the continuation of existence perhaps stripped of the self.

So you find "ghosts" (i.e. disembodied awareness / consciousness) credible? If so, why?

That would be to blatant :rofl:

The point I would like to make though is that consciousness is not as special as people would make it out to be. Although neuroscience is having a tough time explaining how it arises.

A cessation of such a thing (whatever consciousness may turn out to be) would be like a light being switched off. The absence of it is easily noted the same for a human consciousness.

Yet the assignment of thought, idea other cognitive or performative acts to physical entities in this case biological ones such as us merely perpetuates the illusion that we are seperate beings or even separate consciousness!

Feel like I’m channeling my inner Alan Watts above. I remember becoming acquainted with him over 10 years ago through various channels but mostly YouTube.

Must revisit.

I think I cried when I had my first religious/spiritual experience as an atheist that’s how strong and magnificent it was to my non-believing eyes. ... — invicta

I hear you.

And what does invoking "God" have to do with this? I'm guessing "the invocation of God" is some sort of mneumonic trick (mantra/mandala/koan-like trigger) to "remind"ourselves that being an individual, separate consciousness is an "illusion" ... is that it? Tat Tvam Asi–each consciousness is just one pixel (i.e. imago dei) in the infinite hologram of Cosmic/God Consciousness?

Whilst I maintain the position that consciousness is eternal and through human beings temporary for the duration of each beings lifespan able to fully experience life at a biological level of needs wants, fears hopes passions bodily and otherwise without denying them through false Buddhist ideology.

God here (the eternal consciousness or existence if the G word is too hard to swallow for you at this point) is the persistent consciousness not one that ceases as is the case for ours.

In our death this God or eternal consciousness that persists eliminates the need for brain/biology to reproduce that divine spark (consciousness).

Well, if that's the story you tell yourself, invicta, why the angst expressed in your OP about "death" versus "eternal life"?

I just needed some clarity.

Thank you

Well, if that's the story you tell yourself, invicta, why the angst expressed in your OP about "death" versus "eternal life"? — 180 Proof

Yep, especially if @invicta has had personal conformation of a supernatural existent.
Why the angst indeed?

I just needed some clarity. — invicta

I don't understand why your supernatural existent, is not able to resolve the issues raised in your OP, better than the members of TPF?

For me the issue that I have is with holy scripture especially ones that say only if you believe will you get eternal life regardless if you’re a good person.

So you can be an absolute helmet but as long as you believe you can still attain that.

Now that’s got to be something wrong there.

The other thing I got out of this is that I was able to reflect on the nature of consciousness and through the discussion some things became clearer in my mind.

That is all. I think the diety would kinda be proud of me for figuring it out myself instead of being handed out answers like a toddler.

In any case even if my conclusions are wrong I arrive at them myself instead of relying on dogma which could be as wrong or as right.

The other reason despite my experiences I still value doubt, rational and critical thinking so posing it here is better than a religious forum.

For me the issue that I have is with holy scripture especially ones that say only if you believe will you get eternal life regardless if you’re a good person.
So you can be an absolute helmet but as long as you believe you can still attain that.
Now that’s got to be something wrong there. — invicta

Good to read an example of the fact that your original scepticism is still present, and your ability to apply critical thinking to 'holy' scripture, results in your last sentence above. Only one more step, would allow you to move forward again, into atheism. There IS something very wrong with all holy scripture, and it is that it has nothing to do with god, and everything to do with the human tradition of satirical invention and storytelling.

That is all. I think the diety would kinda be proud of me for figuring it out myself instead of being handed out answers like a toddler. — invicta

What convinces you that 'the diety' has powers and abilities that you don't?

The other reason despite my experiences I still value doubt, rational and critical thinking — invicta

Good, then there is that, at least.

I am not comparing your 'experiences,' with the clip below. I just want to suggest that this dramatisation of the smeagol character defeating the 'gollum' manifestation from it's own psyche(if only temporarily), is a fun example of what can be achieved, when you decide to try to rid yourself of irrational thinking.

The assumption that theists are irrational is a common misconception and might even be true in a fair few cases, similar to the manner of people who believe in horoscopes or other superstitions.

My belief btw, has nothing to do with holy books, I wouldn’t be convinced anyway but instead it stems from personal events or circumstances.

Events btw which I could not dismiss as purely happening by accident alone. The freaky and somewhat surprising nature of such scenarios which have actually occurred in my life affirms in me the belief in something extraordinary for the things that happened and actually continue to happen are nothing short of that.

They’re now part of my everyday life if you like and can sometimes be way to numerous for me to recall each one.

Perhaps I am privileged in that respect.

As for me embracing atheism I do not see the point after all I’m not devout or religious believer im just a some one who can recognise it and live my life as I would otherwise, still striving to be a good person not to please God but to do the right thing with good conscience. As such to me the existence of God is no longer a big deal.

Events btw which I could not dismiss as purely happening by accident alone. The freaky and somewhat surprising nature of such scenarios which have actually occurred in my life affirms in me the belief in something extraordinary for the things that happened and actually continue to happen are nothing short of that. — invicta

Do you feel anything? when people like me, think you are deluding yourself, and your experiences are not of the supernatural in any way, shape or form. They are merely of your own psyche.
Many will mock you and laugh at your suggestions, especially when you cannot demonstrate your experiences to them, or demonstrate any enhanced or unusual ability, or new knowledge, as a result of your 'experiences.'

The idea of being ridiculed for expressing my views on the matter might have crossed my mind once or twice. Do I take it personally or take offence by it ? Not at all.

If my mind or psyche has overplayed the significance of such events is something that I have considered also and I could easily dismiss it there and then.

Let me ask you a question to the sceptical aspect of your reasoning which I assume you do not preclude the existence of a diety or a higher power…

As a purely hypothetical scenario let’s say you decided to purchase a lottery ticket and said to yourself, your conscience whatever …if you do exist Mr God…let all these numbers that I’ve picked come up on the next draw…would you believe then or would you simply ascribe it to some freaky mathematical probability?

Give me your opinion on this one.

I watch an atheist youtube call-in show ran by Jimmy Snow called 'the line.'
They used to get a regular caller who used the name 'Charlie.'
Charlie had many supernatural experiences and direct com with god.
He was very passionate about the validity of his experiences, and he kept saying that he was soon going to reveal 'some overwhelming truths,' to the world. He was still putting it all together, but would do the big reveal soon. Every time he phoned, and was asked for more details, and was 'ridiculed' by the hosts of the show, he would become more and more passionate, about how his big reveal would change the world, and would blow everyone's mind, and instantly convert all atheists to theists, and on and on he went.
He was eventually tolerated as an entertainment for a few more shows, and then the moderators of the show were told live, by Jimmy to not put him through any more, as he was obviously mentally ill, and should seek professional help. What do you think of Charlie?