I was taught (falsely perhaps) that in America the only people to understand irony and use it well in humour and art are the Jews. There is definitely a cultural aspect to its use. Irony is one of my favourite things.

Irony does feature in philosophy - from Socrates' ironic stance of 'knowing nothing' to Kierkegaard; On the Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates, Rorty; Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity.

Rorty developed his own word, 'ironism'. Wiki has this on it:

Rorty cited three conditions that constitute the ironist perspective and these show how the notion undercuts the rationality of conservative, reactionary, and totalitarian positions by maintaining the contingency of all beliefs.[1] These conditions are:

- She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered;

- She realizes that argument phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts;

- Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.

— Richard Rorty, Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989, p.73

In Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity, Rorty argues that Proust, Nietzsche, Foucault, Heidegger, Derrida, and Nabokov, among others, all exemplify ironism to different extents. It is also said that ironism and liberalism are compatible, particularly if such liberalism has been altered by pragmatic reductionism.

I don't quite feel any of those definitions are sufficient.

The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect. — T Clark

That happens all the time and is not remarkable. They all seem to be missing a reflexive element that differentiates ironic disparity from any old mundane “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”

I mentioned in another thread the Star Trek Voyager story line of Borg drones having a virtual space in which they were their pre-assimilation individual selves. The irony is: they could create this illusion of separate identities only through the collective consciousness of the hive mind which they were escaping.

See what I mean? In a more immediate situation that might be familiar to many of us: I bought two little magnets for the mailbox lid. I didn't get 'round to fixing it for a while, and in that time I forgot where I put those magnets, thinking: I'll put them in a place I'm sure to remember when I need them.
Or, as my neighbour often says: "I put it in a safe place. I'll never see it again!"

The feeling of holding two contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. Being pulled in two different directions but not being able to choose one over the other to resolve the contradiction. That is the feeling of irony for me. — T Clark

You described Irony as directed inwardly. That internal ironic feeling could be rationalized as simply realizing that things are not as they seem, or as they ought to be ideally. But emotionally, the feeling may be somewhere between Enlightenment and Disappointment. Either a private joke, or a personal farce.

When the logical or physical contradiction is expressed outwardly, it could be intended as a shared feeling of recognition of what's wrong with a particular situation. That's how stand-up comedians establish empathy with the audience. Satire is when we're all in on the joke.

But, when the conflict between what is, and what seems to be -- or should be -- is directed at a particular person or group, the humor is not intended to be shared, but to hurt the target. Judgmental Sarcasm is an ad hominem attack, which varies from a pinch to a bleeding wound. Unfortunately, forum posters too often mistake Sarcasm as a philosophical argument. Isn't that ironic? :joke:

irony :
Reserve irony for situations where there's a gap between reality and expectations, especially when such a gap is created for dramatic or humorous effect.
satire :
Satire is a way of making fun of people by using silly or exaggerated language. Politicians are easy targets for satire, especially when they're acting self-righteous or hypocritical.
sarcasm :
Irony employed in the service of mocking or attacking someone is sarcasm. Saying "Oh, you're soooo clever!" with sarcasm means the target is really just a dunderhead.
https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/irony-satire-sarcasm/

Blame Alanis Morrisette.

Isn't her song famously about irony, without any examples of irony? Ironic... I don't know the song, just that observation.

(falsely perhaps) — Tom Storm

Apocryphal has Bill Bryson suggesting that 40% of Americans do understand irony. That's what, a hundred million folk? Enough for to support a market in ironic humour but not enough for America to claim an understanding of irony.

Isn't her song famously about irony, without any examples of irony? — Tom Storm

So subtle...

I was taught (falsely perhaps) that in America the only people to understand irony and use it well in humour and art are the Jews. There is definitely a cultural aspect to its use. — Tom Storm

She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered...

...Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself. — Tom Storm

I recognize that other people think about the world and use language differently than I do and I don't think my language is more in touch with some sort of absolute reality than others. But that doesn't cause me any doubts about my language. I guess I don't see the irony in this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

But that doesn't cause me any doubts about my language. I guess I don't see the irony in this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. — T Clark

I don't fully understand it but I think irony in philosophy might be the gap between our metaphysical system building and reality. All our systems being constructed from language and never quite making direct contact with the world. But this all sounds like postmodernism.

Apocryphal has Bill Bryson suggesting that 40% of Americans do understand irony. — Banno

Interesting. That comports to my personal experience of the Americans I know. :wink: Is it the other 60% who are susceptible to Donald Trump and don't realize he is an ironist and performance artist, a little like our own Sir Les Patterson?

I don't quite feel any of those definitions are sufficient.

The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect.
— T Clark

That happens all the time and is not remarkable. They all seem to be missing a reflexive element that differentiates ironic disparity from any old mundane “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.” — Vera Mont

As I noted in my post, the definitions miss something I think is important.

You described Irony as directed inwardly. — Gnomon

I see irony as an experience, something mental, not as an objective or physical event.

Has Sir Les ever run for office? He would presumably have a mixed voter base, consisting on the one hand of those who appreciate his contribution to the yarts, and on the other of those who also vote for Barnaby Joyce.

Not to mention Barnaby and Sir Les' contribution to dick cheese...

The cognitive dissonance aspect of irony is interesting. What immediately comes to mind is Swift's A Modest Proposal, where the reader at the time would possibly (for fun) be torn between actually eating babies or demonstrating for compassion. That is unlikely, but possibly in that instance the dissonance would be between making light of cruelty and enjoying it -or- being compelled morally by a pretty good work of satire. I can see cognitive dissonance happening when there is a sign saying no smoking and you have used its surface to strike a match for your cigarette in the absence of any other suitable surface. The rule not to smoke and your conflicting idea to smoke are dissonant, but the irony of the no smoking sign allowing you to smoke is another ironic level.

Too far. Stop.

As I noted in my post, the definitions miss something I think is important. — T Clark

Yes, that's what I was on about also. The fact that the outcome is different from, or even opposite to, the intent is merely unfortunate, and sometimes comical to the onlooker. It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.

It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention. — Vera Mont

I often found it ironic how those I knew in Buddhist, mediation circles would talk about shedding attachments and getting closer to enlightenment whilst simultaneously bonking each other stupid, investing in real estate and buying luxury cars.

In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis.

I often found it ironic how those I knew in Buddhist, mediation circles would talk about shedding attachments and getting closer to enlightenment whilst simultaneously bonking each other stupid, investing in real estate and buying luxury cars. — Tom Storm

Is it necessarily ironic? Perhaps they were not attached to those activities, but simply enjoyed them (and were not attached to their enjoyment, either :joke: ).

In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis. — Tom Storm

Only if it's intentional. :wink:

It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention. — Vera Mont

Intention confusion? Perhaps "it's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the apparent intention because of the real intention" ?

:rofl:

In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis. — Tom Storm

No, it's just [plain hypocrisy. And dishonesty.

Perhaps "it's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the apparent intention because of the real intention" ? — Janus

No, that's just duplicity. SOP for PR, business and some politicians - nothing that needs a special category. .

No, that's just duplicity. SOP for PR, business and some politicians - nothing that needs a special category. — Vera Mont

It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention. — Vera Mont

So, you're saying that irony (the unintended outcome) is only ever unintentional, or what?

If so, that seems to be an impoverished definition of irony.

The people I am referring to were unaware that their practices were in direct contrast to their values. In other words, sincere and unintentional ironists from my perspective.

A proper account of irony is going to have to differentiate it from sarcasm.

I've no idea what sarcasm is.

So, you're saying that irony (the unintended outcome) is only ever unintentional, or what? — Janus

You set a trap for a rat. A squirrel falls into it. Unintended and not the least bit ironic.
You set a trap for your rival. He doesn't fall into it, but a complete stranger does. Bad luck for him, good luck for your rival, failure for you, but no irony.
The operative word there was "because". Hoist with your own petard.
("The phrase's meaning is that a bomb-maker is blown ("hoist") off the ground by his own bomb (a "petard" is a small explosive device), and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.")
You set a trap for your rival. He walks past it, totally unaware. You wonder how that could have happened. You go see why the trap didn't go off. It goes off and catches you.
What happened to you happened only because of what you intended to happen to the other person.


.

...and from satire.

Satire, I'm told, is "an obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness."

Sounds like a form we could amusingly resume.

A proper account of irony is going to have to differentiate it from sarcasm.

I've no idea what sarcasm is. — Banno

Interesting comment mon ami! :up:

The AC overheated? :chin:

I've no idea what sarcasm is. — Banno

I think it's when you apply irony with a sledge hammer.

Right, the outcome was unintentional then. That would be an example of situational irony as given earlier in a definition gleaned from somewhere on the net.

Of course, there is also conscious irony, where the apparent intention is not the real intention.

Or a scalpel.

And then there is Socratic irony, but no one here would know how to use that.