• T Clark
    13k
    This from a recent thread by Introbert:

    I have confessed that I have a fixation on the concept of irony. To me irony is a cheap and easy way, a fix, to exercise the part of my brain that seems to demand philosophical thought. My thoughts on irony extend to its nature as a form of argument, an antagonism, an object of confusion, an element of humor, a threat to objectivity, a method of subjectivism and more.introbert

    I have similar feelings about irony, although I’d call mine affection rather than fixation. It’s something I’ve thought about a lot and I’d like to discuss what it means.

    Here are some definitions of “irony” from the web:

    • The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
    • An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
    • Incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result.
    • A condition of affairs or events of a character opposite to what was, or might naturally be, expected; a contradictory outcome of events as if in mockery of the promise and fitness of things.

    I found a website that had some interesting things to say about irony:

    Irony is a literary device or event in which how things seem to be is in fact very different from how they actually are. If this seems like a loose definition, don't worry—it is. Irony is a broad term that encompasses three different types of irony, each with their own specific definition: verbal irony, dramatic irony, and situational irony. Most of the time when people use the word irony, they're actually referring to one of these specific types of irony…

    …In the last twenty years or so, the term "ironic" has become popular to describe an attitude of detachment or subversive humor, like that of someone who wears a Christmas sweater as a joke. This more recent meaning of ironic is not entirely consistent with the original meaning of irony…
    LitCharts

    The Wikipedia article about irony is also very good:

    Henry Watson Fowler, in The King's English, says, "any definition of irony—though hundreds might be given, and very few of them would be accepted—must include this, that the surface meaning and the underlying meaning of what is said are not the same." Also, Eric Partridge, in Usage and Abusage, writes that "Irony consists in stating the contrary of what is meant."

    The use of irony may require the concept of a double audience. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage says:
    Irony is a form of utterance that postulates a double audience, consisting of one party that hearing shall hear & shall not understand, & another party that, when more is meant than meets the ear, is aware both of that more & of the outsiders' incomprehension…

    …The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics distinguishes between the following types of irony:
    • Classical irony: Referring to the origins of irony in Ancient Greek comedy, and the way classical and medieval rhetoricians delineated the term.
    • Romantic irony: A self-aware and self-critical form of fiction.
    • Cosmic irony: A contrast between the absolute and the relative, the general and the individual, which Hegel expressed by the phrase, "general [irony] of the world."[13]
    • Verbal irony: A contradiction between a statement's stated and intended meaning
    • Situational irony: The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect.
    • Dramatic irony and tragic irony: A disparity of awareness between an actor and an observer: when words and actions possess significance that the listener or audience understands, but the speaker or character does not. It is most often used when the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In tragic irony, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it.
    • Meta irony: When an ironic or sarcastic joke is presented through an ironic lens, or "being ironic about being ironic" and even meta ironic statements are ironicised…


    Situational_irony_-_Baker_Street_tube_station.jpg
    A sign in the Baker Street subway station in London

    There’s a lot here and I’m sure there’s a lot more to say, but I’ve always found definitions of “irony” unsatisfying. For me, there’s something missing. I remember my senior year in high school learning about the dual nature of light. The feeling of holding two contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. Being pulled in two different directions but not being able to choose one over the other to resolve the contradiction. That is the feeling of irony for me.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    I was taught (falsely perhaps) that in America the only people to understand irony and use it well in humour and art are the Jews. There is definitely a cultural aspect to its use. Irony is one of my favourite things.

    Irony does feature in philosophy - from Socrates' ironic stance of 'knowing nothing' to Kierkegaard; On the Concept of Irony with Continual Reference to Socrates, Rorty; Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity.

    Rorty developed his own word, 'ironism'. Wiki has this on it:

    Rorty cited three conditions that constitute the ironist perspective and these show how the notion undercuts the rationality of conservative, reactionary, and totalitarian positions by maintaining the contingency of all beliefs.[1] These conditions are:

    - She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered;

    - She realizes that argument phrased in her present vocabulary can neither underwrite nor dissolve these doubts;

    - Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.

    — Richard Rorty, Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989, p.73

    In Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity, Rorty argues that Proust, Nietzsche, Foucault, Heidegger, Derrida, and Nabokov, among others, all exemplify ironism to different extents. It is also said that ironism and liberalism are compatible, particularly if such liberalism has been altered by pragmatic reductionism.
  • Vera Mont
    3.1k
    I don't quite feel any of those definitions are sufficient.

    The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect.T Clark

    That happens all the time and is not remarkable. They all seem to be missing a reflexive element that differentiates ironic disparity from any old mundane “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”

    I mentioned in another thread the Star Trek Voyager story line of Borg drones having a virtual space in which they were their pre-assimilation individual selves. The irony is: they could create this illusion of separate identities only through the collective consciousness of the hive mind which they were escaping.

    See what I mean? In a more immediate situation that might be familiar to many of us: I bought two little magnets for the mailbox lid. I didn't get 'round to fixing it for a while, and in that time I forgot where I put those magnets, thinking: I'll put them in a place I'm sure to remember when I need them.
    Or, as my neighbour often says: "I put it in a safe place. I'll never see it again!"
  • Gnomon
    3.5k
    The feeling of holding two contradictory ideas in my mind at the same time. Being pulled in two different directions but not being able to choose one over the other to resolve the contradiction. That is the feeling of irony for me.T Clark
    You described Irony as directed inwardly. That internal ironic feeling could be rationalized as simply realizing that things are not as they seem, or as they ought to be ideally. But emotionally, the feeling may be somewhere between Enlightenment and Disappointment. Either a private joke, or a personal farce.

    When the logical or physical contradiction is expressed outwardly, it could be intended as a shared feeling of recognition of what's wrong with a particular situation. That's how stand-up comedians establish empathy with the audience. Satire is when we're all in on the joke.

    But, when the conflict between what is, and what seems to be -- or should be -- is directed at a particular person or group, the humor is not intended to be shared, but to hurt the target. Judgmental Sarcasm is an ad hominem attack, which varies from a pinch to a bleeding wound. Unfortunately, forum posters too often mistake Sarcasm as a philosophical argument. Isn't that ironic? :joke:

    irony :
    Reserve irony for situations where there's a gap between reality and expectations, especially when such a gap is created for dramatic or humorous effect.
    satire :
    Satire is a way of making fun of people by using silly or exaggerated language. Politicians are easy targets for satire, especially when they're acting self-righteous or hypocritical.
    sarcasm :
    Irony employed in the service of mocking or attacking someone is sarcasm. Saying "Oh, you're soooo clever!" with sarcasm means the target is really just a dunderhead.
    https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/irony-satire-sarcasm/
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Blame Alanis Morrisette.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Isn't her song famously about irony, without any examples of irony? Ironic... I don't know the song, just that observation.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    (falsely perhaps)Tom Storm

    Apocryphal has Bill Bryson suggesting that 40% of Americans do understand irony. That's what, a hundred million folk? Enough for to support a market in ironic humour but not enough for America to claim an understanding of irony.

    Isn't her song famously about irony, without any examples of irony?Tom Storm

    So subtle...
  • T Clark
    13k
    I was taught (falsely perhaps) that in America the only people to understand irony and use it well in humour and art are the Jews. There is definitely a cultural aspect to its use.Tom Storm



    She has radical and continuing doubts about the final vocabulary she currently uses, because she has been impressed by other vocabularies, vocabularies taken as final by people or books she has encountered...

    ...Insofar as she philosophizes about her situation, she does not think that her vocabulary is closer to reality than others, that it is in touch with a power not herself.
    Tom Storm

    I recognize that other people think about the world and use language differently than I do and I don't think my language is more in touch with some sort of absolute reality than others. But that doesn't cause me any doubts about my language. I guess I don't see the irony in this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    But that doesn't cause me any doubts about my language. I guess I don't see the irony in this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.T Clark

    I don't fully understand it but I think irony in philosophy might be the gap between our metaphysical system building and reality. All our systems being constructed from language and never quite making direct contact with the world. But this all sounds like postmodernism.

    Apocryphal has Bill Bryson suggesting that 40% of Americans do understand irony.Banno

    Interesting. That comports to my personal experience of the Americans I know. :wink: Is it the other 60% who are susceptible to Donald Trump and don't realize he is an ironist and performance artist, a little like our own Sir Les Patterson?
  • T Clark
    13k
    I don't quite feel any of those definitions are sufficient.

    The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect.
    — T Clark

    That happens all the time and is not remarkable. They all seem to be missing a reflexive element that differentiates ironic disparity from any old mundane “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”
    Vera Mont

    As I noted in my post, the definitions miss something I think is important.
  • T Clark
    13k
    You described Irony as directed inwardly.Gnomon

    I see irony as an experience, something mental, not as an objective or physical event.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Has Sir Les ever run for office? He would presumably have a mixed voter base, consisting on the one hand of those who appreciate his contribution to the yarts, and on the other of those who also vote for Barnaby Joyce.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    Not to mention Barnaby and Sir Les' contribution to dick cheese...
  • introbert
    333
    The cognitive dissonance aspect of irony is interesting. What immediately comes to mind is Swift's A Modest Proposal, where the reader at the time would possibly (for fun) be torn between actually eating babies or demonstrating for compassion. That is unlikely, but possibly in that instance the dissonance would be between making light of cruelty and enjoying it -or- being compelled morally by a pretty good work of satire. I can see cognitive dissonance happening when there is a sign saying no smoking and you have used its surface to strike a match for your cigarette in the absence of any other suitable surface. The rule not to smoke and your conflicting idea to smoke are dissonant, but the irony of the no smoking sign allowing you to smoke is another ironic level.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Too far. Stop.
  • Vera Mont
    3.1k
    As I noted in my post, the definitions miss something I think is important.T Clark

    Yes, that's what I was on about also. The fact that the outcome is different from, or even opposite to, the intent is merely unfortunate, and sometimes comical to the onlooker. It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.Vera Mont

    I often found it ironic how those I knew in Buddhist, mediation circles would talk about shedding attachments and getting closer to enlightenment whilst simultaneously bonking each other stupid, investing in real estate and buying luxury cars.

    In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis.
  • Janus
    15.4k
    I often found it ironic how those I knew in Buddhist, mediation circles would talk about shedding attachments and getting closer to enlightenment whilst simultaneously bonking each other stupid, investing in real estate and buying luxury cars.Tom Storm

    Is it necessarily ironic? Perhaps they were not attached to those activities, but simply enjoyed them (and were not attached to their enjoyment, either :joke: ).

    In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis.Tom Storm

    Only if it's intentional. :wink:
  • Janus
    15.4k
    It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.Vera Mont

    Intention confusion? Perhaps "it's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the apparent intention because of the real intention" ?
  • Vera Mont
    3.1k
    In Christian circles this used to be called hypocrisy and I wonder if hypocrisy, when viewed from a particular perspective, is just irony as praxis.Tom Storm

    No, it's just [plain hypocrisy. And dishonesty.
    Perhaps "it's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the apparent intention because of the real intention" ?Janus

    No, that's just duplicity. SOP for PR, business and some politicians - nothing that needs a special category. .
  • Janus
    15.4k
    No, that's just duplicity. SOP for PR, business and some politicians - nothing that needs a special category.Vera Mont

    It's only ironic when the outcome is opposite to the intention because of the intention.Vera Mont

    So, you're saying that irony (the unintended outcome) is only ever unintentional, or what?

    If so, that seems to be an impoverished definition of irony.
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    The people I am referring to were unaware that their practices were in direct contrast to their values. In other words, sincere and unintentional ironists from my perspective.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    A proper account of irony is going to have to differentiate it from sarcasm.

    I've no idea what sarcasm is.
  • Vera Mont
    3.1k
    So, you're saying that irony (the unintended outcome) is only ever unintentional, or what?Janus

    You set a trap for a rat. A squirrel falls into it. Unintended and not the least bit ironic.
    You set a trap for your rival. He doesn't fall into it, but a complete stranger does. Bad luck for him, good luck for your rival, failure for you, but no irony.
    The operative word there was "because". Hoist with your own petard.
    ("The phrase's meaning is that a bomb-maker is blown ("hoist") off the ground by his own bomb (a "petard" is a small explosive device), and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.")
    You set a trap for your rival. He walks past it, totally unaware. You wonder how that could have happened. You go see why the trap didn't go off. It goes off and catches you.
    What happened to you happened only because of what you intended to happen to the other person.


    .
  • Banno
    23.1k
    ...and from satire.

    Satire, I'm told, is "an obsolete kind of literary composition in which the vices and follies of the author's enemies were expounded with imperfect tenderness."

    Sounds like a form we could amusingly resume.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    A proper account of irony is going to have to differentiate it from sarcasm.

    I've no idea what sarcasm is.
    Banno

    Interesting comment mon ami! :up:

    The AC overheated? :chin:
  • Tom Storm
    8.3k
    I've no idea what sarcasm is.Banno

    I think it's when you apply irony with a sledge hammer.
  • Janus
    15.4k
    Right, the outcome was unintentional then. That would be an example of situational irony as given earlier in a definition gleaned from somewhere on the net.

    Of course, there is also conscious irony, where the apparent intention is not the real intention.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    Or a scalpel.
  • Banno
    23.1k
    And then there is Socratic irony, but no one here would know how to use that.
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