Chicago Riots killed 43 people, part of a series of about 50 such riots which, together with many peaceful demonstrations, brought about the changes in American civil rights.
The Ukraine war is currently killing 600 people a day. — Isaac
First this doesn't prove my point wrong. Secondly, you are comparing a political struggle within a democratic regime to a war between Russia and Ukraine critical for the World Order. It's a bit of a stretch. — neomac
First this doesn't prove my point wrong. — neomac
you are comparing a political struggle within a hegemonic democratic regime to a war between Russia and Ukraine critical for the World Order. — neomac
You seem to have disassociated the costs of your proposal from the imagined benefits — boethius
Russia is the largest weapon provider to Ukraine right now.
— Olivier5
So no sources then. — Isaac
when it comes to those making the exact same argument about the uselessness of condemning Russia you become the solidarity-proclaiming keyboard warrior, when exactly the same is expressed against the US you become the hard-nosed pragmatist. You must get dizzy sometimes? — Isaac
Likewise, you can usefully talk of the US foreign policy on TPF, if the 'use' you aim for is information exchange and/or debate with other TPFers. — Olivier5
it won't affect the US foreign policy at all. — Olivier5
negotiations require a cease fire. Putin will have to ask for one. That's just how it works.
— frank
No they don't, and no it isn't. There aren't laws of physics about peace talks. — Isaac
The US is not the appropriate broker because they have an interest in the conflict.
— frank
What's the US's interest? — Isaac
Here you go: — Olivier5
The Ukrainian army is not confirming whether these numbers are accurate
Even so, Ukraine’s counteroffensive largely depends on the supply of modern weapons from its NATO allies.
460 Russian main battle tanks, 92 self-propelled howitzers, 448 infantry fighting vehicles, 195 armored fighting vehicles and 44 multiple-launch rocket systems,
Major weapons
High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS) and ammunition
The U.S. has committed 16 HIMARS since late-May. It is a lighter wheeled system that can allow Ukrainians to hit Russian targets within Ukraine from further distances.
1,500 Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missiles
Manufactured by Raytheon, the TOW missiles are long-range precision, anti-tank and assault weapons that can hit targets up to 4,500 meters away.
155mm Howitzers
A towed field artillery piece that can hit targets up to 30 km, or 18 miles away. The U.S. has sent 126 of these howitzers, along with 806,000 155mm artillery rounds and 126 tactical vehicles to tow the howitzers.
105mm Howitzers
The U.S. committed to sending 16 105mm howitzers and 108,000 105mm artillery rounds to go with the howitzers. The United Kingdom has already provided the L119 model, which is a light weight howitzer that can provide direct fire support at armored vehicles or buildings or indirect fire to support combat arms in ranges over 10 km, or 6 miles.
120mm mortar systems
The U.S. Army uses three versions of the 120mm mortar systems, but they are designed to provide close-range, quick-response indirect fire during tactical combat. The U.S. has sent 20 of these systems, as well as 85,000 rounds of 120mm mortar ammunition.
National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems (NASAMS);
The National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, also known as the Norwegian Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System, are advanced air-defense systems that can hit targets up to 100 miles away. The U.S. has committed to sending eight NSAMS, along with munitions for the systems.
Phoenix Ghost Tactical Unmanned Aerial Systems
The U.S. has committed approximately 700 Phoenix ‘Ghost’ drones to Ukraine between April and July. The systems, made by AEVEX Aerospace, are designed to attack targets.
Switchblade Tactical Unmanned Aerial Systems
The U.S. has sent over 700 Switchblade drones to Ukraine since March. There are two types of Switchblade drones and the U.S. has sent both, those its unclear how many of each type Washington has sent.
The Switchblade 300 weighs about five pounds and can fly roughly 6 miles, and is intended to target personnel and light vehicles. However, the Switchblade 600 can fly more than 24 miles and can stay in the air for 40 minutes.
Puma unmanned aerial systems
The Pentagon awarded AeroVironment $19.7 million in April to produce the Puma AE RQ-20 system for Ukraine. Designed for reconnaissance and surveillance, it has a range of 20 km, or about 12 miles, and has over three hours of flight endurance.
Mi-17 helicopters
The U.S. has provided 20 of the Soviet-era transport helicopters that can also be used as a helicopter gunship. Can carry as many as 30 passengers or 9,000 pounds of cargo
Harpoon coastal defense systems
The U.S. announced in June that it would provide two vehicle-mounted Harpoon systems, which are intended for coastal defense. The U.S. said in June that it would provide the launchers, while allies and partners would provide the missiles.
Scan Eagle Unmanned Aerial Systems
The U.S. sent 15 Scan Eagle systems as part of its Aug. 19 package to Ukraine for reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition. These systems are just under four feet in length, and have an altitude of 16,000 feet above ground level. The Aug. 24 weapons package included support equipment for these systems.
VAMPIRE Counter-unmanned aerial systems
The U.S. first committed to providing the VAMPIRE system in its $2.98 billion weapons package announced Aug. 24. Colin Kahl, the Pentagon’s top policy official, said the VAMPIRE uses small missiles to shoot drones out of the sky.
Stinger anti-aircraft systems
The U.S. has provided over 1,400 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. The Stinger has a range of 5 miles and can attack targets up to 15,000 feet.
Javelin anti-armor systems
The U.S. has provided over 8,500 Javelin surface-to-air missiles. Javelin is a portable anti-tank system that can hit targets from 65 meters to 4,000 meters away in most operational circumstances.
High Speed, Anti- Radiation Missiles
The Aug. 19 weapons package included an undisclosed amount of High-speed Anti-radiation (HARM) missiles. The Pentagon first disclosed in early August that it has sent these missiles, but didn’t specified which kind or how many. However, CNN reported that the U.S. has sent the AGM-88 HARM, an air-to-surface tactical missile that has a range of at least 30 miles, and is designed to find and destroy radar-equipped air defense systems.
Over 27,000 other anti-armor systems
Other equipment and small arms
Radars
50 counter-artillery radars
Four counter-mortar radars
Four air surveillance radars
Counter-battery radar systems
Vehicles/Boats
Four Command Post vehicles
Unmanned Coastal Defense Vessels
Hundreds of Armored High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles
50 armored medical treatment vehicles
200 M113 Armored Personnel Carriers
18 coastal and riverine patrol boats
40 MaxxPro Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles with mine rollers
Explosives, Small Arms, Ammunition, Munitions
M18A1 Claymore anti-personnel munitions (command-detonated fixed-direction fragmentation weapon for use against personnel)
C-4 explosives, demolition munitions, and demolition equipment
Over 10,000 Grenade launchers and small arms
Over 59,000, 000 Small arms ammunition
Equipment
75,000 sets of body armor and helmets
22 Tactical Vehicles to recover equipment
Laser-guided rocket systems
Tactical secure communications systems
Night vision devices, thermal imagery systems, optics, and laser rangefinders
Commercial satellite imagery services
Explosive ordnance disposal protective gear
Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear protective equipment
Medical supplies
Electronic jamming equipment
Field equipment and spare parts
Funding for training, maintenance, and sustainment
Mine clearing equipment and systems
The US is not pushing for war but helping Ukraine defend herself, which is perfectly legitimate. — Olivier5
Some people here are unable to discuss anything. — Olivier5
But it does not follow that the US is pushing for war. — Olivier5
I'm referring to the way the conflict is presented, as if Europe, US and NATO are "good guys" vs an evil villain. In my view, the leaders (not the people in the country, or at least not most of them by any means) are all criminals and are using this war as a means to sell weapons and make a killing, while pretending it's about saving Ukranians. — Manuel
I don't like to repeat this because it is too obvious, kinda like saying "Hitler was evil", but yes, this war is a criminal act and Russia is the aggressor. But I also cannot leave out the previous provocations by the West and the repeated warning by Russia. — Manuel
If you're thinking there was a better time in the past when wars weren't about expanding portfolios, I think you're wrong.
And yet there actually are other reasons that wars happen. It's ok to examine those other reasons without fear of being caught naive. — frank
It's unfortunate that Putin didn't pick a different route to protecting his neighborhood, if that's what he was doing. — frank
What is the price you are willing to pay, in Ukrainian lives, for Ukrainian "liberation" of the 5 annexed territories?
What price are you willing to pay, in Ukrainian lives, and Ukraine still lose the war?
Let's say Ukrainian military is in a position where they could easily defend the rest of Ukraine or could commit to all-in-offensives to liberate the occupied territory at the risk of exhausting their forces and total defeat.
What is your risk tolerance for a failed re-conquest of the annexed territories resulting in the even worse outcome of the complete fall of most or all of Ukraine into Russian control? — boethius
You seem to be arguing that Ukrainians fighting more, regardless of outcomes, is a humanitarian accomplishment. — boethius
If Zelensky sued for peace in the early stages of the war, say the first days, and basically Ukraine lost Russian occupied Donbas and Crimea and the war ended, are you willing to argue that would have been against human rights on Zelensky's part? — boethius
You seem to have disassociated the costs of your proposal from the imagined benefits — boethius
You're obsessed with proving. It's you who raised the objection to my position, not the other way around. I'm quite happy with your position. I don't agree with it, but I've neither the interest, nor have any clue how I would go about 'disproving' it. — Isaac
1) Continued war to retain Ukrainian control over the region and improve the population's human rights by political pressure from their membership of the EU/NATO.
2) End the war by ceding Donbas/Crimea to Russia and improve the population's human rights by supporting protest and political change in Russia.
In 2 fewer die. — “Isaac
Okay, so Putin is pushing for war — Olivier5
and Biden is not. — Olivier5
Exactly what I was saying! — Olivier5
but we have escalations. — Manuel
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