A system is only as good as it's implementation. It's not the system that's broken. It's the implemenation. — creativesoul

I don't think the former supports the latter. That a system is only as good as its implementation means that a system which is failing might not be broken (only badly implemented) but it does not show that it is not broken (only badly implemented).

I'm not sure if all the problems with democracy are fixable, but I can't think of a better general system of actual governance. A vote is just one of many means by which we can influence society. Getting someone more amenable to our objectives in power is a very, very small part of politics.

My objection here is over when the soap opera around who is in power is allowed to detract from those other, more important aspects of politics.

"The current Republican Party is a clear and present danger to the USA"

important proceeding.
— creativesoul

seriousness and the future implications of all that?
— creativesoul

How corrupt has our nation become if a violent coup cannot wake them from their slumber.
— Jackson

Yes, and what exactly have you two done about it? Beyond being outraged from what your reading/seeing? — Xtrix

It appears to me that Creativesoul is itching for a new Civil War in the USA.

This user has been deleted and all their posts removed.

I'm not sure if all the problems with democracy are fixable, but I can't think of a better general system of actual governance. — Isaac

Good to know that behind your ill-chosen typings, (such as describing the democratic process as 'a weaselly fudge,') there is a person who can't think of a better system of governance than one which is at least, democratically elected.

My objection here is over when the soap opera around who is in power is allowed to detract from those other, more important aspects of politics. — Isaac

We ignore or trivialise any event or happening in politics, local or national at our peril.
Take your eye off the ball for a split second and the nefarious will have it away/change your access to it/make it almost unrecognisable to you.
We need so many eyes on all things political that they cannot make a single decision that is not scrutinised by 'very powerful detectors of all nefarious intentions.'
Before you ask, NO I don't know quite how to achieve that but I remain convinced that humans can and eventually will. I always liked Obama's 'Oh yes we can.'

A system is only as good as it's implementation. It's not the system that's broken. It's the implemenation.
— creativesoul

I don't think the former supports the latter. That a system is only as good as its implementation means that a system which is failing might not be broken (only badly implemented) but it does not show that it is not broken (only badly implemented). — Isaac

Well, that's not supposed to be an argument. Rather, just stating the facts as I understand them. In order to know if the failure is inherent to the system or the implementation thereof we need to understand the system first in order to know whether or not it's being implemented properly.

It's not. In fact the sheer volume of revolutionary writings that very clearly show that the founders very well understood the danger that "pure capitalists" posed to the country by virtue of being loyal only to profit, and not to country or countryman(their words). Add to this the emoluments clause, the strict limit upon an individual's campaign contribution, the separation of powers, and well, an originalist interpretation could not escape the conclusion that there have been a number of direct violations against the constitution. The end result???

The best government money can buy.

I'm not sure if all the problems with democracy are fixable, but I can't think of a better general system of actual governance. A vote is just one of many means by which we can influence society. Getting someone more amenable to our objectives in power is a very, very small part of politics.

My objection here is over when the soap opera around who is in power is allowed to detract from those other, more important aspects of politics.

Indeed, the political theatre desensitizes... Shock sells. Intentional exaggeration for the purpose of selling something mundane, if done enough, causes harm. Boys and wolves come to mind...

:up:

Indeed, one can't be too careful these days...

the mark of what I mean by voodoo economics is that money is made for the market makers at the expense of the real economy. So junk bonds, asset-stripping, war-profiteering, etc, as distinct from straight economics where there is production or services that folks want. The cost is paid in social cohesion, social provision, and trust in social institutions. Sooner or later collapse of such a system is inevitable, and the trick is to emigrate with one's stash before the guillotines are activated.

You think the national GOP is bad, look at the Texas version:

The new platform would call for:

Requiring Texas students “to learn about the humanity of the preborn child,” including teaching that life begins at fertilization and requiring students to listen to live ultrasounds of gestating fetuses.

Amending the Texas Constitution to remove the Legislature’s power “to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.”

Treating homosexuality as “an abnormal lifestyle choice,” language that was not included in the 2018 or 2020 party platforms.

Deeming gender identity disorder “a genuine and extremely rare mental health condition,” requiring official documents to adhere to “biological gender,” and allowing civil penalties and monetary compensation to “de-transitioners” who have received gender-affirming surgery, which the platform calls a form of medical malpractice.

Changing the U.S. Constitution to cement the number of Supreme Court justices at nine and repeal the 16th Amendment of 1913, which created the federal income tax.

Ensuring “freedom to travel” by opposing Biden’s Clean Energy Plan and “California-style, anti-driver policies,” including efforts to turn traffic lanes over for use by pedestrians, cyclists and mass transit.

Declaring “all businesses and jobs as essential and a fundamental right,” a response to COVID-19 mandates by Texas cities that required customers to wear masks and limited business hours.

Abolishing the Federal Reserve, the nation’s central bank, and guaranteeing the right to use alternatives to cash, including cryptocurrencies.

When I was a kid in Texas I would wear my cowboy hat and shoot my cap pistol while singing, "The eyes if Texas are upon you . . ." :roll:

Democrats murder the unborn directly while Republicans murder the world indirectly (global warming). It's ironic we have to choose between such alternatives

Democrats murder the unborn directly while Republicans murder the world indirectly (global warming). It's ironic we have to choose between such alternatives — Gregory

Only if one lies about abortion being murder.

Only that your pride requires blood

Only that your pride requires blood — Gregory

I have no idea what that means.

Well. I would still vote Democrat for the greater good

Democrats murder the unborn directly ... — Gregory

So Independents, Libertarians, Republicans and apolitical women do not also "murder the unborn"? For clarity's sake, cite some corroborating evidence to support this claim. :brow:

Only that your pride requires blood — Gregory

:grimace: :groan:

I have no idea what that means. — Jackson

:snicker:

I'm not sure if all the problems with democracy are fixable, but I can't think of a better general system of actual governance. — Isaac

I'm impressed by American democracy.

American democracy is by it's very design, a republic with democratic tradition. It is a representative form of government that is remarkably different than a pure democracy in that rather than majority rule, the people choose from a selection of candidates, and those elected official's are responsible for acting on behalf of the country.

It was of the utmost importance to the framers to take intentional measures to ensure that they prevented too much power from being in too few hands. We can see that throughout the system.

Elected officials have certain duties and responsibilities bestowed upon them by design which help to prevent any accumulation of power. It is clear. It is plain. It is quite easily understood. No magic tricks. No doublespeak.

Emoluments clause, and how a campaign for office is to be funded and subsequently enacted.

There are some very clear rules being broken by different elected public officials across the spectrum. Breaking them has somehow and in some way become the norm. The emoluments clause has been being broken by countless elected officials, president notwithstanding for decades. Divesting one from one's own financial interests is not just a suggestion. It's not just an unspoken norm. The emoluments clause is codified. It remains an indispensable component of a carefully articulated system of checks and balances. Breaking it amounts to improper implementation, to put it mildly. The framers included it as a means to eliminate the conflicts of interest between the elected official's best interest when and if it is contrary to the overwhelming majority's.

Breaking it has been a secret kept out in the open. Most Americans already believe that there is a fair enough amount of monetary corruption influencing their elected officials. Most Americans believe it's some unspoken norm for a public official to seek office as the primary source of income. Most Americans believe it's the norm for public officials to enrich themselves as a result of being an elected official. Most Americans believe that elected officials make campaign promises that they do not intend uon keeping. They accept these as an incontrovertible fact; as if nothing can be done. It's not that way at all.

Something can be.

A vote is just one of many means by which we can influence society. Getting someone more amenable to our objectives in power is a very, very small part of politics.

Getting someone more amenable to our objectives is THE issue at hand as best I can tell. I

...the trick is to emigrate with one's stash before the guillotines are activated. — unenlightened

Wisdom. Who would take such a sap as I?

:brow:

What did you mean? Republicans are trying to end abortion.

What did you mean? Republicans are trying to end abortion. — Gregory

Is abortion the only thing that matters to you?

No, I said that saving the planet from heat death supercedes it

No, I said that saving the planet from heat death supercedes it — Gregory

So, abortion and heat death. Nothing about violent coups.

Genocide and saving humanity are pretty far up there, ye

Genocide and saving humanity are pretty far up there, ye — Gregory

So you think the US is committing genocide. Odd.

The world is. I am not Catholic but one of the previous Pope's said abortion is the new Holocaust. I agree

The world is. I am not Catholic but one of the previous Pope's said abortion is the new Holocaust. I agree — Gregory

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Something can be. — creativesoul

How? What's the mechanism you propose?

In his uniquely dialectical fashion, Hegel writes, "In the ordinary course of nature the condition of the child in its mother's womb is a condition neither merely bodily nor merely mental, but psychical- a correlation of soul to soul. Here are two individuals, yet in undivided psychic unity: the one as yet self, as yet nothing impenetrable, incapable of resistance: the other its actuating subject, the single self of the two. The mother is the genius of the child; for by genius we commonly mean the total mental self-hood, as it has existence of its own, and constitutes the subjective substantiality of some one else who is externally treated as an individual and has only independence in name. The underlying essence of the genius is the sum total of existence, of life, and of character, not as a mere possibility, or capacity, or virtually, but as efficiency and realized activity, as concrete subjectivity."

This is not the place to debate abortion I guess, but consider how a mother in her soul takes care of her child, protects it, and comforts it into existence. What could be more evil than for the woman to stop this move of nature and assert a "right" to be free from the motherhood she already possesses?

Hegel writes, — Gregory

When quoting, please cite the source.

Philosophy of Mind, paragraph 405