“A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots.”—Mark Twain. — James Riley

Good quote thanks. This seems like a big reason for a lot of the controversy. Maybe I'm missing something.

George Washington vaccinated his troops so a virus wouldn't kill them first. Vaccines are very safe. Particularly compared to things people often use regularly.

You just don't want to be inconvenienced by your own choice. — James Riley

You are smart enough to know the difference between an inconvenience and Israeli practices. I asked you a straightforward question: would you be in favor of such practices in the case of unvaccinated people, or are you against it, Travis?

You'd have to do research that involved more than confirmation bias. But you be you, Dr. Tzeentch. — James Riley

Again, you won't find a medical expert that disputes any of those things, so the joke's on you. I understand that your us versus them narrative makes little sense when that is a given, so perhaps it is you who needs to worry about their biases?

Well, for me, it's based on the civics and patriotism I was taught in school. It's part of community and selflessness, gratitude, grace, and giving. But that's an old school thing. — James Riley

You trust your government based on your love for it (patriotism) and your noble character?

That's not a basis of trust, that's called being naive and gullible.

I will grant you this, though, if I was black or Indian some other group that the U.S. had experimented on, I might think twice — James Riley

What does ethnicity have to do with it? The US experimented on all types of people. Do a Google search on "American Nuclear Guineau Pigs: Three Decades of Radiation Experiments on U.S. Citizens".

And yes, you read that correctly, three decades. It's only one of many examples.

How about you, Tzeentch? Were your people experimented on by government? Or are you from a privileged class? — James Riley

I don't belong to 'a people' or a class.

Well, I think going to all those third-world countries to provide them with vaccines, not bombs, is the order of the day. — James Riley

Haha, America, spreader of democracy, freedom and now vaccines, through subversion, revolution and at the end of a gun barrel!

God bless the USA.

Tell that to the individuals who, on the basis of literally nothing, are promoting a defacto apartheid between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

I understand things are a little less far along in the US (I don't know if you're American), , but in Europe we're starting to see an eerie repeat of the '30s.

I didn't bother to read your post. I find your arguments too cowardly, selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful and un-American. So I'll not waste my time. I'll just close with the following:

I understand, Tzeentch. Not everyone is made of the same stuff I’m made from. A lot of folks these days are afraid. They’re afraid of needles. They’re afraid of their own government. They are afraid of other people that don’t look or act like them. They find their comfort in echo chambers, with chicken-hawk kids like Tucker Carlson, Donny Trump and Fox News. They are selfish, inconsiderate and disrespectful. Thinking their government is out to get them. As if they are important enough to have something the government wants, beyond help in fighting a virus. They have no sense of civic responsibility, grace, or gratitude. They are the center of their self-entitled universe. As sheep, they have been told by their shepherd that they are independent rebels. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

Be brave, little man, be brave! Or you be you. But please don’t spread your filthy disease. It’s not very nice. Take personal responsibility for your actions and stay home. We are trying to have a society, a civilization out here. We do have a lot of cool stuff and we are happy to share; even with parasites, but remember, they are privileges, not rights.

Bye, son. I hope you grow up some day.

Haha, America, spreader of democracy, freedom and now vaccines, through subversion, revolution and at the end of a gun barrel! — Tzeentch

You don't have to be vaccinated. Simmer down.

Well, I did read your post, because I don't feel threatened by conflicting opinions, and thanks for sharing so many of those with me.

Opinions aren't selfish or inconsiderate - actions can be, and of my actions you know almost nothing. But of course it is very easy to create a mental image of someone whose opinions you don't like, and assume they must be terrible people. A simple trick of the mind to avoid having to deal with conflicting opinions.

I show everyone common courtesy. When I am shown the same, respect can be earned and reciprocated. None of these things sadly applied to our conversations, and when I am continuously insulted and belittled, I have no problems holding up a mirror. And apparently you did not enjoy having your own behavior mirrored to you. Food for thought, perhaps?

Our conversations can be as pleasant or as unpleasant as you make them, to me it makes no difference.

Bye, son. I hope you grow up some day. — James Riley

It is funny you should say that, because it shows the differences between our views.

You believe "to grow up" is to accept a subjugation of the mind to the demands of the state - and that is what states want: subjugated minds that march to the beat of its (war)drums at their beck and call.

I believe to grow up is to emancipate oneself completely from the mental impositions of the state and society. It is a vital part of self-actualization.

But I wish you much the same. Grow up, son!

subjugated minds that march to the beat of its (war)drums at their beck and call. — Tzeentch

Yeah yeah yeah— you’re very special for going against the grain. How brave of you. How unique.

Yeah yeah yeah— you’re very special for going against the grain. How brave of you. How unique. — Xtrix

It's a different mentality with these folks. Their shepherds have them believing they are rebels, rugged individualist, standing up to the evil forces of big government. :roll: They are chicken hawks. Anti-intellectuals, afraid of science, the future, needles; they are sheep who follow charlatans. Just make sure you never rely on them to have your six.

If you ever want to distinguish between the coward and the real freedom-loving individualist, just look at who let others do all the work, and who stood up. The proof is in the pudding.

It's a different mentality with these folks. Their shepherds have them believing they are good boys, rugged collectivist, standing up to the evil forces of ???. :roll: They are chicken hawks. Anti-intellectuals, afraid of reason, themselves, liberty; they are sheep who follow charlatans. Just make sure you never give them any power over others. — Tzeentch

Here are some ideas for filling in the ???:
- Individuals whose opinions their government doesn't like
- Individuals whose opinions they don't understand (important one)
- Individuals in general
- Whoever their stately overlords have appointed

You won't find an expert that will tell you an unvaccinated person is more contagious than a vaccinated one, nor will you find one that tells you a vaccine is more effective than natural immunity. — Tzeentch

Here, you stand corrected on both counts (30 seconds of google):

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/the-vaccinated-arent-just-as-likely-to-spread-covid/620161/

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/covid-19-studies-natural-immunity-versus-vaccination

But science is not the issue with me. For me it is political. You see, I embrace "guilt by association." I look around and see the people who agree with you, Tzeentch. I see white nationalists, racists, fascists, Republican, Q types and anti-intellectuals who undermine science. Now, granted, maybe Tzeentch is different. Maybe he really is a Doctor who knows something I don't know. But he fails to put any distance between himself and the fascists. He fails to disavow these people. So I make it political and toss him in with his comrades.

Am I painting with too broad a brush? Maybe, but I see you holding it, not me. So, when Michelle Obama says "When they go low, we go high" I disagree. When they go low, I go down there with them and give them a taste of their own medicine. They, like you, don't like that. :rofl: They don't like when science goes by the wayside and politics is the order of the day.

So some are not the independent, free thinkers, standing up to government authority. They are surrounded by, embraced by, and themselves embrace a large swath of people, outlined above. Loners they are not. They are summarized by the word "fascist." If they were to try and put some distance between themselves and those that agree with them, then I'd have to rethink. And individual members may say it is not their job to police their ranks. But you will be known by the company you keep, whether you like it or not. Science be damned, I'll stand with Dr. Fauci while you stand with Tucker Carlson.

So remember, when you try to refute the above trashing of your statement that I would never find a scientist blah blah blah, remember, it's not about the science. It's about cowardice. And you can see what I wrote about that, above.

Here, you stand corrected on both counts (30 seconds of google): — James Riley

Imagine thinking a Google search is going to produce unbiased results.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v1

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Here. Actual research papers, which you can interpret and glean conclusions from yourself. Will likely take you more than 30 seconds, though.

I could link a hundred more, but I am not interested in a science debate either.

You see, I embrace "guilt by association." — James Riley

Generalizations are by definition inaccurate, thus you're embracing ignorance.

But it's none of my business what your opinions of me are or who you associate me with. I'm interested in your ideas and argumentations only.

When they go low, I go down there with them and give them a taste of their own medicine. They, like you, don't like that. — James Riley

I am enjoying our conversation, heated as it may be. Why else would I be here still talking with you?

So some are not the independent, free thinkers, standing up to government authority. They are surrounded by, embraced by, and themselves embrace a large swath of people, outlined above. Loners they are not. They are summarized by the word "fascist." If they were to try and put some distance between themselves and those that agree with them, then I'd have to rethink. And individual members may say it is not their job to police their ranks. But you will be known by the company you keep, whether you like it or not. Science be damned, I'll stand with Dr. Fauci while you stand with Tucker Carlson. — James Riley

I'm not even going to defend myself against the intellectual concession of defeat that is calling someone else a fascist. Believe what you will about me, as I said, it's of no concern to me. Convincing you is of no concern to me. But if you're interested in fascism, you should know they love violence and authority, Travis.

Imagine thinking a Google search is going to produce unbiased results. — Tzeentch

Doesn't matter if they are biased or not. You said I couldn't and I did. You are are wrong and I am right. But did you admit that I did when you said I could not? No. You just pivot like a good little political tool.

You lost credibility a long time ago, but this is just another example of how wrong you are. So, lacking credibility, there is no need for me to follow up on your failures which could, and have been so easily proven wrong. Hell, Xtrix has already spanked you on the science, repeatedly. Your side is just biased. You aren't Doctor Tzeentch.

I'm not even going to defend myself against the intellectual concession of defeat that is calling someone else a fascist. — Tzeentch

It's not a concession of defeat if it is true.

Doesn't matter if they are biased or not. You said I couldn't and I did. — James Riley

If by expert you thought I meant "a random person in a news article", then.. Oh well. Link an actual scientific study if you want me to take it serious.

But go you.

It's not a concession of defeat if it is true. — James Riley

So it is a concession of defeat. But it's one that was in the making for a long time.

If by expert you thought I meant "a random person in a news article", then.. Oh well. Link an actual scientific study if you want me to take you serious. — Tzeentch

You lack the intellectual, analytic, and critical thinking skills to comprehend actual scientific studies. That is proven by the fact that you called those authors "random person" without even looking at who they are. Besides, like me, you aren't a doctor and even if I cited actual scientific studies, you would have done the same thing. You would have alleged bias and tried other futile pivots. (The truth is biased toward truth. DOH!) Just like those who supported big tobacco and big oil. As I said, others on this very thread have cited the actual scientific studies that take you over their collective knees and spank your bottom until it is an angry red.

So it is a concession of defeat. But it's one that was in the making for a long time. — Tzeentch

No, I'm correct: You will be judged by the company you keep. This was not long in making. You made it yourself when you aligned more solidly with your leaders than I do with the U.S., the CDC, the FDA, and the world experts.

That is proven by the fact that you called those authors "random person" without even looking at who they are. — James Riley

I did take a look at who they were, and the fact that there's "medical" in their job title does not make them an expert in whatever it is they're making claims about.

Besides, like me, you aren't a doctor and even if I cited actual scientific studies, you would have done the same thing. — James Riley

Likely I would've had to point out that whatever you believe that hypothetical study proves, does not correspond to the actual conclusion of the study. Which is what I would've had to do if you referred to the studies your articles referred to, which I did take a look at.

... others on this very thread have cited the actual scientific studies, ... — James Riley

So have I.

You made it yourself when you aligned more solidly with your leaders — James Riley

Now it gets interesting.

My leaders? And who might those be?

I did take a look at who they were, and the fact that there's "medical" in their job title does not make them in expert in whatever it is they're making claims about. — Tzeentch

Pivot. Pivot. Pivot. :rofl: That "medical" in their job title is something you don't have and are not smart enough to have. Compared to you, they are experts. Besides, here you are pivoting when you already stipulated that science was not the issue for you either. So, you are just running from the fact that you said I couldn't and I did. You are a loser.

Likely I would've had to point out that whatever you believe that hypothetical study proves, does not correspond to the actual conclusion of the study. Which is what I would've had to do if you referred to the studies your articles referred to, which I did take a look at. — Tzeentch

The fact you call it a hypothetical study without follow up shows your ignorance. I'm not going to do your research for you, son. You are the one who pretends to be a researcher, a doctor, and expert, on par with people who are demonstrably smarter than you.

So have I. — Tzeentch

No you haven't. They were "biased" and blah blah blah. Pivot, pivot, pivot! :wink:

My leaders? And who might those be? — Tzeentch

Those people I referenced that you fail to distance yourself from. You know, the same people who make the same arguments you are now making. They are your government. The govern your thinking. Because you damn sure didn't get it from experts in the field. And you damn sure aren't smart enough to do your own independent thinking.

which I did take a look at. — Tzeentch

A lot of unintentional hilarity here:
https://thefederalist.com/2021/11/04/how-covid-vaccine-coercion-drove-me-out-of-west-point/

That "medical" in their job title is something you don't have and are not smart enough to have. — James Riley

Fair enough. I am also not smart enough to have "Dr" infront of my name, so I guess the following article must be true.

New research deflates current understanding of the shape of our world

The article even calls them "cutting edge". Seems legit if you ask me.

Those people I referenced that you fail to distance yourself from. You know, the same people who make the same arguments you are now making. — James Riley

Oh, who are they, and what arguments do they make?

Fair enough. I am also not smart enough to have "Dr" infront of my name — Tzeentch

Should have stopped there.

Oh, who are they, and what arguments do they make? — Tzeentch

They are who I already told you they are. Didn't you read? Didn't you pay attention? Do I have to repeat myself? Look, I don't want to have to do your thinking for you, so I'll give you a hint: Remember when I said the science was no longer the issue for me? Remember when, right after that, I explained how it was all about the politics? Remember why I said that? Remember who I said your position was aligned with? Who I said you agreed with? Remember all that? No? Okay.

It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas. It's a common theme in our conversations.

It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas. It's a common theme in our conversations. — Tzeentch

It's a common theme in history. And I'm in good company.

It's amusing how personal you get when you run out of ideas. — Tzeentch

P.S. I think it all started when you mistakenly intimated that those who got vaxxed were somehow government dupes who supported a violation of the stipulated individual right to bodily autonomy.

I never said that or even implied it.

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect. — Tzeentch

You are, as usual, wrong. Allow you to correct yourself (and this is only part of it):

That's not a basis of trust, that's called being naive and gullible. — Tzeentch

You believe "to grow up" is to accept a subjugation of the mind to the demands of the state - and that is what states want: subjugated minds that march to the beat of its (war)drums at their beck and call. — Tzeentch

Or will you follow authority without question, and expect everyone else to do the same? — Tzeentch

You do as you're told and expect others to do the same, but not everyone has this slavish disposition and unwavering faith in government. — Tzeentch

Or is not asking questions about that also a part of being a "real American"? — Tzeentch

You were right about one thing though: You didn't imply it. You outright said it. So again, when you start to get a little bit of your own medicine, you start to cry about me getting personal. Typical of those who pretend to individuality while hiding behind the anti-intellectual skirts of their leaders.

That had nothing to do with vaccination or anyone's right to bodily autonomy. That had to do with your seeming love of authority, and I meant every word of it.

That had nothing to do with vaccination or anyone's right to bodily autonomy. That had to do with your seeming love of authority, and I meant every word of it. — Tzeentch

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect. — Tzeentch — James Riley

Fixed that for you. Don't steal my quotes.

Fixed that for you. Don't steal my quotes. — Tzeentch

It wasn't your quote. I wrote it without your name for the reason stated. And I'll say it again:

Now you're just trying to give yourself an excuse for why you got personal. You got caught. Go reflect.

Listen son, when you step on your pee pee, man up and admit it. Like you should have when I called your bluff about experts and you stood with egg on your face. You just keep digging. :roll: