We're now beginning to pay the price of centuries of suffering and exploitation of generations of oppressed and marginalized people by capitalism and liberalism. — baker

Rampant industrialization and oppression plagued anticapitalist economies as well as capitalist economies during the 20th century. Exploitation, injustice, and mass destruction have plagued human civilization from the beginning. The roots of the problem go deeper than easy generalizations about capitalist ideology and capitalist modes of organization, though of course the negative effects of inadequate regulation and unjust policy are increasingly obvious worldwide in our times, just as capitalism in various forms has finally covered the globe.

In the last couple decades it's become harder even for relatively privileged people in relatively privileged regions to deny, to rationalize, or to ignore the acceleration of ecological instability and socioeconomic injustice. But it seems clear that the people of Earth have been paying the price of irrational and inhumane policy for a long time.

So you think it makes perfect sense to expect the disenfranchized to play along as if all was well?? — baker

Given the state of things, I don't think it makes sense for anyone to play along as if all is well. All is not well. Far from it.

That doesn't make it reasonable to lash out at random, much less in lethally misguided rage and confusion on the basis of blatant misinformation. It's clear enough that the outrage and mistrust prevalent through the anti-vaccination community is driven in part by foreign and domestic oligarchs whose agents skillfully rattle the echo-chambers to corrupt hearts and minds and divide the people. It's ironic that in their manufactured rage at "the government", the anti-vaxxers play into the hands of the rich assholes who dominate governments like they dominate all resources of Earth. The same tragic irony runs deep through the Koch-funded libertarianism that in recent decades has become so popular in the US. Of course this is just a variation and intensification of the tactics of elite right-wing politics dating back at least to the Southern Strategy: They use hateful bullshit to enrage and confuse people into acting against their own interests.

By contrast, the bullshit spewed and swallowed by "the liberals" during the same period has been complacently optimistic, not hatefully pessimistic.

Disenfranchized people and those on the verge of disenfranchizement are less likely to cooperate with the government's agenda and with society at large. — baker

Who isn't one of these people nowadays? I doubt you could use that criterion to distinguish COVID-vaccine receivers from COVID-vaccine refusers, though it may have some statistical weight.

It's still not clear to me what point you're making. Do you mean merely to suggest that people who feel threatened are more likely to lash out in irrational and inhumane ways? It's understandable, but not advisable, that people act thus.

Or do you actually mean to recommend that everyone who has woken up to smell the bullshit in right-wing and liberal rhetoric and ideology should "stop cooperating with the government" and with "society" and with "the liberals"? That just sounds like more groupthink nonsense to me, another drop in the ocean of confusion that's helping the oligarchs run away with the ball.

There's plenty of nonsense like that plastered all over social media, accompanied by spooky music and cheap tricks. I prefer to engage people who may still be moved by reasonable conversation.

Some of those people are COVID-vaccine refusers who haven't figured out who's rattling their cages.

What are the odds of you dying from covid if you are vaccinated? (They're miniscule) — Bartricks

Well, about 115,000 people in the US shot each year. About one person in 3000. They don't all die. If 750,000 dead of Covid in 19 months isn't a reason for definite action, then why gun control? Why police at all? Why any concern at all about shootings? After all, your chances of being shot are not-so-high.

Yes, I can acknowledge genuine concerns about vaccine safety in light of the thrombosis issue. But I’d trust the boards and management and scientists at these pharma companies a long while before I trusted conspiracy-mongering internet posters or their lunatic fringe antivaxer cheer squad. — Wayfarer

I believe there is an individual risk of a harmful reaction to the covid vaccination, as in war the individual or group of individuals can be killed. But as our soldiers risk their lives for the rest of us, we must take that individual risk for the good of all. The consequence of not taking that risk is keeping everyone in danger and that can make covid endemic rather a temporary threat.

A pandemic means a disease the spreads from one place to the next and the correct response can limit the spread of the disease and make it a temporary problem.

Endemic means the disease is embedded in the population and does not go away, such as areas where malaria is endemic, or the common cold.

Our refusal to take the risk to protect others means we can be the carrier who infects others, leading to their suffering, their possible long-term poor health, and possibly their death. And we could carry the responsibility of the disease mutating and being more deadly and/or so embedded that future generations will still have the problem. I think we need to ask, is my one life, more important than all the others? Does a valuable member of society put everyone else at risk? What is the honor of behaving as a soldier who flees to save his own life?

But as our soldiers risk their lives for the rest of us, we must take that individual risk for the good of all. — Athena

That might be your view, but I disagree that one can simply decide for another what individual risks they should or shouldn't take, moreso because it concerns their most valuable human right: that of autonomy over their own body.

Our refusal to take the risk to protect others means we can be the carrier who infects others, leading to their suffering, their possible long-term poor health, and possibly their death. — Athena

The chance of me infecting someone and them undergoing serious health problems as a result of it is no bigger than the risk of stepping into a car and causing a collision: very, very small. I am healthy, and wise enough to take caution around vulnerable people.

You may say something like: but if everyone thinks that way, it will pose a risk to people, etc.
To that I say, I accept responsibility only for my voluntary actions, and no one else's.

Point me to the person I hurt by refusing this vaccine, and I will take responsibility. But you cannot, because likely there are none, and I won't accept your claim to my body on the basis of empty accusations.

Does a valuable member of society put everyone else at risk? — Athena

What I assume you consider valuable members of society put everyone else at risk every day. They step in cars, they don't get their flu shots, they procreate, they smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, etc.
To cherry pick one particular risk and assign it so much weight is completely inconsistent and unconvincing.

Besides, what "society" considers valuable is of no concern of mine. I think "society" in a general sense is terribly dysfunctional.

What is the honor of behaving as a soldier who flees to save his own life? — Athena

War is a pointless, tragic thing. Honor is the carrot "society" has used for centuries to lure its young men into an untimely death for the benefit of the few. The individual shouldn't accept to be sacrificed on the altar of the collective; not in war, not in a pandemic.

Medicine, in case you haven’t noticed, is a complex and difficult subject. As a result, it’s an area where it’s a bad idea to leave people entirely to their own devices. The clamor for unproven treatments like taking hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin reminds us why we require that physicians be licensed and drugs be approved, rather than leaving it up to the public to decide who’s qualified and which medication is safe and effective.

So you have to wonder why anyone would consider it a good idea when Florida’s surgeon general urged people to downplay medical advice on vaccines and rely on their “intuition and sensibilities.”

Finally, the most contentious area in this whole argument involves vaccine and mask requirements for schools. And in this area, opponents of mandates aren’t making decisions for themselves — they’re making decisions for their children, who have rights of their own and aren’t simply their parents’ property.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/01/opinion/vaccine-mandates-biden-republicans.html

I don't know if this has been shared before, but I just re-read this again and thought it was good:

Point me to the person I hurt by refusing this vaccine, and I will take responsibility. — Tzeentch

Except, once you "take responsibility" it might be too late.
That's not taking responsibility, it's irresponsible. :fire:

Should SARS-CoV-2 be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake, as your sentiment suggests? :down:
Should asymptomatic pathogen factories (active carriers) be treated/avoided? :up:
COVID-19 isn't really bad, but it's bad enough, and doesn't care about people's ideologies; could be a suitable rehearsal for a worse one.
The right thing to do is to stomp the pathogen down, learn, and get on with things.

I guess you could stay away from others, or get tested before freely intermingling with the unsuspecting?

— Tzeentch

Point me to the person I hurt by refusing this vaccine, and I will take responsibility. But you cannot, because likely there are none, and I won't accept your claim to my body on the basis of empty accusations. — Tzeentch

I assume you mean you can isolate yourself and that may be a fine choice for people who can do that, but it is not a choice medical personnel, firemen, teachers, and store clerks can make. And the cost of isolation is high. Until the infection rate is low enough for life to return to normal, unvaccinated people are the cause of much human suffering, and here is how.

Before the vaccination, many businesses had to close and people were isolated. The nutrition sites are giving meals to take home, but we can not go inside and visit as we do in normal times. Those living in congregate housing such as independent living apartments, assisted living, and nursing homes were isolated in their rooms, no activities, no socializing during meals, no visitors, and this was harder on the elderly than children. They lost strength and their minds faded away. Then when they were all vaccinated they regained freedom, but life has not gone back to normal because when we let our guard down the infection rate went sky high.

When everyone could be vaccinated and the infection rate was very low, we got to return to almost normal. But thanks to all the people who refuse to get vaccinated and follow the rules, the infection rate went sky high. I can not see my clients, we can not go places and we can not socialize at the nutrition sites. Our hospital was so overwhelmed and we called in the National Gaurd and people could not get medical care. Our beloved supervisor who was vaccinated still got infected and the virus attacked her heart. She fears she will die within a year.

Hopefully, all this is only temporary but the virus can become so embedded in our population, then we will have to live like this from now on. People who refuse to get vaccinated are holding us all hostage. We could have returned to normal months ago, but no, people think their liberty comes first and all of us are paying a price for that.

How do you take responsibility for the skyrocketing infection rate that has returned us to the worst of times? If you got covid and had to be hospitalized, the medical bill could keep you in debt for the rest of your life, and are you willing to be responsible for other people's medical bills if you did pass the virus on to them? If your hospital is overwhelmed with covid, how can you be responsible for all those who can not get medical care?

What I assume you consider valuable members of society put everyone else at risk every day. They step in cars, they don't get their flu shots, they procreate, they smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol, etc.
To cherry-pick one particular risk and assign it so much weight is completely inconsistent and unconvincing. — Tzeentch

Driving is a serious responsibility, especially when I have passengers. I make every effort to do so responsibly and that is equal to getting vaccinated. Even with the vaccination I can become infected and infect others. I think that is why we went from letting people decide if they want a vaccination or not, to mandatory vaccinations because it is not a 100% sure thing. The virus mutates and we are fighting to stay on top of that. My car has good steering and good brakes, and I am vaccinated. Life is not without risk, but we can reduce the risk and this is not cherry-picking. Not being vaccinated is like driving a car with bad brakes. When I was young I tried that and decided it was not a good idea. :lol:

War is a pointless, tragic thing. Honor is the carrot "society" has used for centuries to lure its young men into an untimely death for the benefit of the few. The individual shouldn't accept to be sacrificed on the altar of the collective; not in war, not in a pandemic. — Tzeentch

I think that depends on the war. China now has hypersonic nuclear weapons and we do not have a good defense against them. Perhaps the subject of war deserves its own thread? Unless our democracy is defended in the classroom, it is not defended and the next big election will be interesting. We may be our own worst enemy? We took our democracy for granted and this was a mistake. We took our military superiority for granted and this may have been a mistake?

We can of course hope the pandemic so weakens the world, no one goes to war. Resolving the global overpopulation with a pandemic could be a good thing? :grin:

China now has hypersonic nuclear weapons and we do not have a good defense against them. — Athena

Iraq WMD $\rightarrow$Iraq War

Is there a pattern here or is it just me?

Iraq WMD →→Iraq War

Is there a pattern here or is it just me? — TheMadFool

I am the person who argues that US is the military-industrial complex we defended our democracy against. If anyone wants to discuss war, start a thread for that and pm me.

People who refuse to get vaccinated are holding us all hostage. — Athena

No. Your government is keeping you hostage with the way it frames and deals with the issue. This line of argumentation is dependent on whether all the measures taken to combat the virus are effective, and there are plenty of indicators that they aren't. (A report made by the Dutch government itself estimated that the Covid measures taken had saved around 100,000 QALY's, and cost a whopping 620,000 QALYs for a net loss of 520,000 QALYs in the Netherlands alone. This report was, predictably, ignored.)

People who are vaccinated still contract and transmit the virus, and to think things would go back to normal if everyone were vaccinated is an illusion. This is all about control.

... people think their liberty comes first and all of us are paying a price for that. — Athena

Certain liberties, unalienable human rights of which the right to autonomy over one's own body is the most fundamental, are the only thing that seperates us from the era of Sun Kings and Mao Zedongs, and indeed all that stops human society from being a thinly veneered group of apes.

If history has taught us one thing, it is that humans are incapable of wielding certain types of power, and that those who tend to wield power are in fact least fit to wield it. That's why human rights exist, and this understanding should form the basis of any mandate given to states to wield power over individuals.

How do you take responsibility for the skyrocketing infection rate that has returned us to the worst of times? — Athena

I don't need to take responsibility, because I am not responsible.

If you got covid and had to be hospitalized... — Athena

But I do not.

Driving is a serious responsibility, especially when I have passengers. I make every effort to do so responsibly and that is equal to getting vaccinated. — Athena

Well, I don't think that is enough. I think you should drive a bike instead of being so reckless to drive a car and take a risk with other people's lives. Would be better for the environment too.

We took our democracy for granted and this was a mistake. — Athena

We took our military superiority for granted and this may have been a mistake? — Athena

And now you are taking your liberties and human rights for granted, and in fact squandering them for the promise of safety. That is most certainly a mistake; a Trojan horse.

but I disagree that one can simply decide for another what individual risks they should or shouldn't take, more so because it concerns their most valuable human right: that of autonomy over their own body. — Tzeentch

You do realize you live within the web of such decisions 24/7/365, yes? - and that if you did not likely you and your whole family would have died miserably a long time ago. The simple truth is that you really have no idea what you're writing about, your intellectual efforts about the same import as a dog compulsively scratching an itch.

I don't get why people are still talking about this. We have a vaccine that works really well, which is amazing considering they were saying it would take up to a few years maybe, and now its subject to conspiracy theories and stuff. Really unfortunate, and I think maybe facebook and twitter are partly to blame. Misinformation spreads a lot faster than it used to.

Misinformation spreads a lot faster than it used to. — John McMannis

“A lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots.”—Mark Twain.

And now you are taking your liberties and human rights for granted, and in fact squandering them for the promise of safety. That is most certainly a mistake; a Trojan horse. — Tzeentch

Sorry. when it comes to covid I will rely on science. When the government decides we all have to wear blue uniforms I will worry about the political play. Right now I think people who believe Covid vaccinations are about politics, are as wrong as people who feared witches in the Dark Ages before science. That fear is socially spread hysteria and if you want to argue otherwise, that could be interesting. :lol: Too much Fox news and not enough reasoning.

People who are vaccinated still contract and transmit the virus, and to think things would go back to normal if everyone were vaccinated is an illusion. This is all about control. — Tzeentch

Vaccinated people develop infections, but they don't usually get critically ill.

Rampant industrialization and oppression plagued anticapitalist economies as well as capitalist economies during the 20th century. Exploitation, injustice, and mass destruction have plagued human civilization from the beginning. The roots of the problem go deeper than easy generalizations about capitalist ideology and capitalist modes of organization, though of course the negative effects of inadequate regulation and unjust policy are increasingly obvious worldwide in our times, just as capitalism in various forms has finally covered the globe.

In the last couple decades it's become harder even for relatively privileged people in relatively privileged regions to deny, to rationalize, or to ignore the acceleration of ecological instability and socioeconomic injustice. But it seems clear that the people of Earth have been paying the price of irrational and inhumane policy for a long time. — Cabbage Farmer

I started this morning with the thread about Afghanistan and the Taliban and marveling over the success of the United States and the very high level of security I have despite having disabilities and living below the poverty level. When I was raising children my life was not this easy, but never was it as bad as what mothers are experiencing in Africa and Afghanistan. Why do you all think life is better in the US than in many places where people fear for their lives and do you think we will become as those other countries?
Seriously the people who believe our government is out to get us, seriously scare me. They are like the Taliban and I fear at any time they will become violent.

People who are vaccinated still contract and transmit the virus, and to think things would go back to normal if everyone were vaccinated is an illusion. This is all about control.
— Tzeentch

Vaccinated people develop infections, but they don't usually get critically ill. — frank

The mutant virus, that is not well controlled by the vaccination for the original virus, is causing havoc. I get the impression people are thinking we are dealing with one virus, not mutations of that virus. A big concern is if we do not stop the spread of the virus it will continue to mutate and then the vaccine may become completely ineffective.

The dilemma is about safety versus liberty, the boundaries we put on those in power; it is about the free press, the independence of academia and the growing power of multinationals.

It hardly gets more political than this, and science provides no answers to any of these dilemmas.

Maybe you believe the narrative that there is no moral dilemma, that safety provides a limitless mandate for the use of power and the breaching of human rights, and that the power of science in the hand of our omnibenevolent and incorruptable governments ran by philantropists will lead us to the promised land. A road to hell, to be sure.

Why do you all think life is better in the US than in many places where people fear for their lives and do you think we will become as those other countries? — Athena

Stability comes and goes in human social groups. Humans make large scale groups that can last for centuries. It's usually most stable near urban centers which act like population hubs.

Lots of things can result in social breakdown, like invasions, war, famine, natural disasters, and uprisings. Those things will tear the US down eventually, but probably not in our lifetimes.

I don't need to take responsibility, because I am not responsible. — Tzeentch

:lol: And that is the problem, you a few million others do not think they are responsible. "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". :lol: That goes with "Paranoia will destroya" and "Don't anyone over 30". 1960-70

Stability comes and goes in human social groups. Humans make large scale groups that can last for centuries. It's usually most stable near urban centers which act like population hubs.

Lots of things can result in social breakdown, like invasions, war, famine, natural disasters, and uprisings. Those things will tear the US down eventually, but not probably not in our lifetimes. — frank

What gives a social group stability? Should we start a thread for this subject?

A big concern is if we do not stop the spread of the virus it will continue to mutate and then the vaccine may become completely ineffective. — Athena

They can tweak the virus fairly easily. That's what's great about thus kind of vaccine.

But yes, we just had a delta wave where I am. We're now expecting a bad flu season because of the lockdowns last year.

↪Athena The dilemma is about safety versus liberty, the boundaries we put on those in power; it is about the free press, the independence of academia and the growing power of multinationals.

It hardly gets more political than this, and science provides no answers to any of these dilemmas.

Maybe you believe the narrative that there is no moral dilemma, that safety provides a limitless mandate for the use of power and the breaching of human rights, and that the power of science in the hand of our omnibenevolent and incorruptable governments ran by philantropists will lead us to the promised land. A road to hell, to be sure. — Tzeentch

I am starting a new thread because the subject is so exciting and I want to make it easy for everyone to find. "Creating and Destroying a Civilization"

What gives a social group stability? Should we start a thread for this subject? — Athena

We could. I think it's basically the same thing that gives a wolfpack stability (got an awesome book recommendation about that).

We could. I think it's basically the same thing that gives a wolfpack stability (got an awesome book recommendation about that). — frank

I started a thread to discuss Creating and Destroying a Civilization.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/12077/creating-and-destroying-a-civilization

Remember Rome was begun by two brothers raised by a she wolve.

According to tradition, on April 21, 753 B.C., Romulus and his twin brother, Remus, found Rome on the site where they were suckled by a she-wolf as orphaned infants. According to the legend, Romulus and Remus were the sons of Rhea Silvia, the daughter of King Numitor of Alba Longa. ...

Rome founded - HISTORY — History Channel

:grin: I think the wolf is a symbol of wildness. We're domesticated dogs, but we never lose our wild roots, and in fact everything we are springs from that natural source.

There was a study about how people behave when they're sick. About 50% seek to be cared for by others, and 50% want to go off alone.

That's kind of how we are in general, I think. Some of us congregate together and open doors to the part of our potential that requires cooperation and the ability to compromise.

Others of us will go out beyond the group to be free like Cossacks. Both kinds of people have value to the species.

This thread follows the Anti-vaccination. Those of us who believe everyone should be vaccinated and those of us who believe this is the government's effort to control us and that we will lose our liberty if we don't fight against our government, are at each other's throats. — Athena

This is an exaggeration of the position for those opposed to making vaccines mandatory. To be 'anti-vax' is a completely different issue. It is precisely such broad painting with a brush of anyone who questions or disagrees that is the heart of the problem.

I don't believe the government is using vax's to 'control' people but it is fairly clear that we're talking about freedoms and we've seen creeping laws against 'terrorism,' 'hate speech' and such that have not exactly instilled people with confidence.

I'm not a US citizen btw and the laws of my homeland are opposed to ANY compulsory vaccinations so my perspective is different.

Some times we must give up our freedom for life. Sometimes we must give up our life for freedom. Tough call! Don't expect an easy answer.