• frank
    6.7k
    Anti-vaccination sentiment (as it relates to COVID19) is tied to suspicions about the origins of the disease and the profitability of vaccines, as well as fears about it's safety.

    But now that the Astra-Zeneca vaccine is being put on hold, at least one arm if opposition seems to have been vindicated.

    What about the notion that the vaccine is a tool for extracting money from the population? How suspicious are you?
  • James Riley
    316
    I'm very suspicious, but I got a one & done from J&J anyway. I don't dive deep on such things, but the memes and tweets and whatnot that respond to the anti-vaccine folks, along with science, pushed me over the edge. That, and I don't really care about the down side that much.

    I've come to believe that unless I am personally willing to invest the time and resources necessary to make myself an expert on a given subject then I will, generally, defer to those who have. That doesn't mean I close my mind, or don't have my doubts, or ask questions, but here is how I opt to wear a mask:

    I wear a mask for the same reason I wear a gun: Sick people. I did a subjective, unscientific calculation of the odds versus the inconvenience and decided it ain't no thang. Besides, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I figure if everyone wore a mask and a gun we'd have fewer sick people. It may take a while to get there, but that's how it would shake out in the end. You'd have to be a real pussy to be inconvenienced by a piece of cloth. When I see those without it, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they are mentally or physically handicapped.

    I also like the cartoon of the little girl saying "Momma, what's that?" To which the mother replies "That's my Small Pox Vaccine scar." The little girl asks "Why don't I have one?" The mother replies "Because it worked."

    So look, if Bill Gates wants to chip me, or big pharma wants to milk me, I say give unto Caesar. But, with SSNs and cell phones and biometrics and whatnot, we are all in the data base already. The old Greeks and Socrates (I'm a fan) had a habit of abiding the State when it came down to it. Sure, they'd rock the boat before hand, but when the rubber met the road, they stood up. Good enough for me.

    Finally, I think Ronald Regan was full of shit when he opined that government was the problem. I think government can be a problem. But I've seen a lack of government before and it's not pretty.
  • tim wood
    6.5k
    I really want to like you as a person.
    I say give unto Caesar.James Riley
    The old Greeks and Socrates (I'm a fan) had a habit of abiding the State when it came down to it. Sure, they'd rock the boat before hand, but when the rubber met the road, they stood up. Good enough for me.James Riley
    Ronald Regan was full of shit when he opined that government was the problem. I think government can be a problem. But I've seen a lack of government before and it's not pretty.James Riley
    Amen, amen. On this last, in one of countless debates on ratifying the Constitution, a western Massachusetts' famer argued for, saying they, "knew good government from the lack of it." Real farmers know a thing or two, even if no two them agree.

    But this:
    I wear a gun.... You'd have to be a real pussyJames Riley
    There may be people who either should or are obliged to be armed most of the time. But for the rest of us, in my book, it takes a real pussy to wear, and to think he needs to wear, a gun beyond need.
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    I don’t think any anti-vaccine sentiment is right. I just believe people shouldn’t be forced to take it or be discriminated against if they do not.
  • frank
    6.7k
    When I see those without it, I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and just assume they are mentally or physically handicapped.James Riley

    Buy they're just average people. The anti-vaccination thing has been on my mind because I visited with a friend and her relatives informed that the information "is all over the place" that the coronavirus was engineered by Bill Gates and he's making a profit off the vaccine. They say this like it's totally normal to believe this sort of thing.

    I started wondering if this has always been true of people: that they're primed to believe conspiracy theories? Maybe I'm the naive one, lol.

    Your post was very sensible. Thanks!
  • frank
    6.7k
    don’t think any anti-vaccine sentiment is right. I just believe people shouldn’t be forced to take it or be discriminated against if they do not.NOS4A2

    I don't think anyone is being discriminated against, are they?
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    There’s talk of “vaccine passports”, people getting fired for not taking it, and anti-vaccine people are routinely demonized.
  • tim wood
    6.5k
    the profitability of vaccines,frank
    Hah! I take eyedrops for old-age glaucoma. - welcome to the world! 2.5 ml. the bottle. 400 bottles equivalent to one litre. Active ingredient, .005% solution. Can you do the arithmetic? Retail about $80. That works out to around $640M for one litre of the medicine, or about $2.5B / gallon. Of course medicines that really are special and expensive cost a lot more!

    A better question is, how much are people paying for their vaccinations? Do you know? And the cost to make, package, and distribute them?
  • James Riley
    316
    I just believe people shouldn’t be forced to take it or be discriminated against if they do not.NOS4A2

    I will discriminate against those who do not play ball. I won't violate the law in doing so, and I won't seek to call out, shame or embarrass, but on my property, when I had a business (I just retired), I discriminated against those without masks, and I would do so against those who didn't vax up when they had the chance. I have a rant on something similar, taken from another context:

    "Cancel Culture is a non-governmental, private sector, personal, individual, conservative choice. It has been widely practiced in conservative, small, rural, and even tight-knit urban communities since time immemorial. It is called ostracization. It has also been called consequences. It has also been called social engineering. The point here is, if you are going to be an a**hole, you can expect to get treated like one."

    Now that last sentence may seem a little harsh in the current context, but the general idea is there. I like it because there is no physical violence and everyone still has their freedom of choice. It's just that, well, . . . It speaks for itself.
  • tim wood
    6.5k
    There’s talk of “vaccine passports”, people getting fired for not taking it, and anti-vaccine people are routinely demonized.NOS4A2

    Because, routinely, they're a**holes. And the passport people are just the a**holes on the other end of the see-saw. But real danger happens when the a**holes win elections (in the US), and since Reagan we've had a bumper crop of those, nationally and especially locally. But a question I asked you elsewhere, that you ignored, was if Typhoid Mary means anything to you. The underlying idea being that when people themsleves become poison, some control is appropriate.
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    I can understand discriminating between sick and healthy, but discriminating against people who do not conform, whether they are healthy or not, doesn’t sit right with me. The same goes for cancel culture, which is little more than the enforcement of thought crime through mob tactics.
  • James Riley
    316
    I really want to like you as a person.tim wood

    I appreciate that. I have to learn to accept this with grace, which is hard for me. I have a habit of aligning with Groucho Marx :"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." I've been banned from more discussion forums that I can shake a stick at, because, once I start fitting in, I intentionally fuck it up. I'm sure Freud or some other shrink would have a word for it. But I'm working on turning that around.

    There may be people who either should or are obliged to be armed most of the time. But for the rest of us, in my book, it takes a real pussy to wear, and to think he needs to wear, a gun beyond need.tim wood

    It's that whole question of "need" and how one perceives it, I guess. I've rarely ever needed it but it's the reason I'm sill typing.
  • James Riley
    316
    I started wondering if this has always been true of people: that they're primed to believe conspiracy theories?frank

    I used to have a tendency toward that, though I never went off the deep end. I recall a quote from Churchill (I think) who, paraphrasing, said something like "When you are young, you are not concerned about what others think of you. When you are in the middle, you are concerned about what others think of you. When you are old, you realize no one was ever really thinking about you." LOL That quote helped me realize that the plutocracy really doesn't give a shit about me or my money. They are, however, concerned about a physical threat that we might pose to them. That's a good thing, I reckon. Let that be their paranoia.
  • javi2541997
    595
    What about the notion that the vaccine is a tool for extracting money from the population? How suspicious are you?frank

    The vaccine comes from our taxes so I am not suspicious at all. I guess vaccines are important because it prevents us from dying of COVID... I would even reinforce the laws just to provide the right of vaccination to everyone
  • frank
    6.7k
    That quote helped me realize that the plutocracy really doesn't give a shit about me or my money.James Riley

    Oh. So it makes me important to Bill Gates, as opposed to just being nobody. Of course!

    They are, however, concerned about a physical threat that we might pose to them.James Riley

    They throw us bones to keep things quiet.
  • Tzeentch
    983
    Normal, healthy people being framed as a threat to safety for exercising their right to bodily integrity is a scary trend.
  • James Riley
    316
    The same goes for cancel culture, which is little more than the enforcement of thought crime through mob tactics.NOS4A2

    You are correct. I agree that is what it is. In my opinion, it's nothing more than the social contract; a contract of adhesion (it's forced on you whether you like it or not, a monopoly on a necessary widget). If a body does not comply, then they can change their ways or continue to suffer. The free market would have them liable for the damages to anyone they infected. But, since they would avail themselves of legal burdens of proof that would let them off the hook, the people come in and say "Our only recourse to protect ourselves from your selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful choices is to turn our backs on you. If you want to take your ball and go home, then go. We will find another ball and continue playing without you."

    I remember seeing a video of a cow elk in Yellowstone, under assault by a pack of wolves. She ran in amongst a group of bison, seeking shelter. I don't know if she thought they would protect her, as fellow herbivores, but that is what I thought. They did not. They literally through her to the wolves. They pushed her down, horned her and tossed her from the group. I don't know what the lesson was in all that, but I try to learn from it anyway.
  • frank
    6.7k
    The vaccine comes from our taxesjavi2541997

    Bill Gates helped fund the development of the vaccines. I guess that's where the theory comes from.
  • James Riley
    316
    They throw us bones to keep things quiet.frank

    Yessiree! In a society where the teaming masses are armed to the teeth, it's wise to keep the bread and circuses flowing, lest lady razor get hauled out from storage.
  • javi2541997
    595
    Bill Gates helped fund the development of the vaccines. I guess that's where the theory comes from.frank

    We are not from the same country. My vaccines come from the European Union and it is paid by our taxes not by Bill Gates.
  • James Riley
    316
    Normal, healthy people being framed as a threat to safety for exercising their right to bodily integrity is a scary trend.Tzeentch

    We could put the burden of proof upon them to show they or indeed normal and healthy. But that would be deemed an imposition. We could ask the market to take care of it (demand they insure) but who would insure them? In the end, prohibiting the private sector from exercising their right to ostracize would be an equally scary trend. Hey, if Cletus can't be forced to sell a cake to a gay couple, then how can I be forced to sell a widget, or provide a service to an anti-vaxer? There is no imprisonment, or corporal punishment here. No shoes, no shirt, no service. While I think folks should be able to walk around in public, buck-ass naked, and that would be part of their right to bodily integrity, like not wearing a seat belt or a helmet, society too often pays the price.
  • James Riley
    316


    Don't forget Dolly Parton!
  • NOS4A2
    4.4k


    Cancel culture negates any chance of forgiveness and reform. The ostracized tend to gather at the fringes, where their views and resentment metastasize away from the withering light of free and open debate. It always escalates. Soon we get McCarthyism and the like, ostracism based on rumors, smear campaigns, until it expresses itself in injustice and tyranny. Rather than protect the “social contract”, it violates it, leaving everyone at risk.

    I’m of the mind that we must bring these people closer, protect their right to express their opinions, and hopefully change their minds. I think this pertains also to the covid and vaccine sceptics.
  • frank
    6.7k
    A better question is, how much are people paying for their vaccinations? Do you know? And the cost to make, package, and distribute them?tim wood

    Is the money just appearing out of nowhere?
  • frank
    6.7k
    We are not from the same country. My vaccines come from the European Union and it is paid by our taxes not by Bill Gates.javi2541997

    I don't know if the Gates Foundation helped with the Atra Zeneca vaccine. It was partially funded by the US government, though.

    So not just your taxes, chief.
  • frank
    6.7k
    Don't forget Dolly Parton!James Riley

    Dolly Parton?
  • James Riley
    316
    Cancel culture negates any chance of forgiveness and reform.NOS4A2

    I disagree, entirely. I think of some of the indigenous communities where the ostracized were always forgiven, even in advance of the ostracization, as evidenced by the fact they were not simply killed, or subject to corporal or some other punishment. And they were always welcomed back into the fold, when the lesson was the genesis of their reform. Now, of course, there are always those who are petulant, stubborn little children who refuse the "get the point", but Darwin will take care of them.

    As to the compounding of stupidity in the safety of a conservative safe-room echo chamber for snow flakes, that is what happens when you allow these people to continue to avail themselves of the benefits of society while still harboring and sharing their anti-social tendencies.

    I don't advocate limitations on free speech. But nor do I advocate forcing anyone to associate with assholes.

    I’m of the mind that we must bring these people closer, protect their right to express their opinions, and hopefully change their minds.NOS4A2

    That's what we've been doing for a year. And I agree, is should be done, even before ostracization kicks in, but society doesn't have to wait around for ever. While our society (U.S.) wants to encourage individualism and liberty, it doesn't have to let sick people roam the streets at will.
  • javi2541997
    595


    There is not only Astra Zeneca, there are more vaccines...
  • James Riley
    316
    Dolly Parton?frank

    She tossed a cool million into the vax development pot. She's a hero, but Bill Gates is the devil.
  • Tzeentch
    983
    Those pesky individual rights. If only we could do away with those, the world would surely be a better place.
  • James Riley
    316
    Regarding funding and development of the vaccines, I had a question mark appear over my head when I heard about the alleged pharma espionage. Based upon how seriousness we were lead to believe the problem was, I thought maybe nobody should be hiding anything from anybody. All research should not only have been open source, but there should have been widespread cooperation and world government funding as incentive. But maybe it wasn't all that serious. I mean, apparently there are palms that must be greased, and money to be made that I am not aware of.
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