But why have so many Republicans refused to take their shots? Some, of course, have bought into the wild claims about side effects and sinister conspiracies that circulate on social media. But they’re probably a small minority.
Almost surely, mainstream right-wing media outlets, especially Fox News, have played a much bigger role. These outlets generally steer away from clearly falsifiable assertions — they have to worry about lawsuits. But they nonetheless want to do all they can to undermine the Biden administration, so they have done their best to raise doubts about the vaccines’ safety and effectiveness.

The effect has been to encourage many Republicans to think of getting vaccinated as an imposition, a cost they’re being asked to bear rather than a benefit they’re being offered — and, of course, something they’re primed to oppose precisely because it’s something Democrats want to see happen. Medical experts may say that going unvaccinated greatly increases your risk of getting seriously ill or dying, but hey, what do they know?

— Krugman, NY TIMES

Nails it. So much for principle.

Why are the scientists who helped create the virus, running the vaccination program? Giant, extraordinary, cover-up for science's complicity in pandemic? — MondoR

How are they running the vaccination programme?

How are they running the vaccination programme? — Down The Rabbit Hole

Fauci's fingerprints are everywhere at the crime scene. It's a massive crime against humanity that he is at all involved with anything.

How are they running the vaccination programme? — Down The Rabbit Hole

Shh…just let the crackpot scream his conspiracy theories. He’s the best thing for the vaccine program.

But people generally do have an overwhelming and insurmountable fear and distrust of being abused and taken advantage of. They're just not always able to put it into exact words.
— baker

Sure, but I don't see how it would be reasonable to claim that anyone is being abused and taken advantage of in the current covid situation. — Janus

People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.

I don't agree that any decisions should be made without considering others, without considering the community as a whole, because we all are dependent on the state in so many ways. Or if you prefer a less impersonal framing, we are all dependent on the community, and I think we owe it our allegiance to the utmost degree we can manage, especially in times of crisis, because those times are the times solidarity is most needed. — Janus

Indeed, in those times, solidarity is needed the most. But it is unreasonable to expect people to practice solidarity after beating into them for decades the doctrine of rugged individualism.

Solidarity isn't just about what a person "feels in their heart", but it has to be embedded into the whole structure of society, for a long time.

We disagree right here. The public health advice being acted on now does not contravene the "largely settled" "laws about issues of public health". — Janus

It does, precisely because in the current situation, some (many?) governments are not acting in accordance with laws. (Or else, existing laws have been found to be unconstitutional.)

But why have so many Republicans refused to take their shots?
/.../
— Krugman, NY TIMES

Nails it. So much for principle. — Xtrix

The response of right wingers surely depends on whether they live in a country where they have the majority or not.

I live in a country with a right wing government who is vocally for vaccination; the right wingers here are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination. (So are the centrists and leftists, although less violently so.)

From a political perspective, whether someone is vocally in favor of vaccination or not seems to be related to whether they or the political party they support is in a position of power, and has less to do with where on the political spectrum said party is.

People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal. — baker

The legality of requiring vaccination in certain industries is open to question and will be determined in courts if it is challenged. Whether such requirements are ethically reasonable is another question. The Right has generally supported the right of proprietors of businesses to hire and fire, for whatever reasons they like, as they see fit. And now it is mostly the Right that is squealing about it and calling it an infringement of individual rights.

But it is unreasonable to expect people to practice solidarity after beating into them for decades the doctrine of rugged individualism. — baker

It is mostly the Right that has promoted the idea of rugged individualism; not everyone has swallowed it, though.

It does, precisely because in the current situation, some (many?) governments are not acting in accordance with laws. (Or else, existing laws have been found to be unconstitutional.) — baker

Here in Australia it is (some) industries and business who are mandating vaccination and our Liberal (Rightwing) prime minister has issued statements warning businesses who do that that they may be subject to legal action for doing so. Such actions by businesses and industries may or may not be tested in court, but beyond that, the actions seem reasonable enough, since having a vaccination is hardly much of an inconvenience.

If people have serious problems with it (mental or physical) they may be able to obtain medical exemptions, and I believe some people here already have done so. The downside there will be that some people who simply don't want to be vaccinated will rort the system and obtain unwarranted medical exemption. I know of at least one case of that and also one case of a person gaining an unwarranted exemption from wearing a mask in the workplace.

since having a vaccination is hardly much of an inconvenience. — Janus

Indeed, the people who ended up with strokes or dead from the vaccine experienced hardly much of an inconvenience.


Perhaps you don't see it, but you yourself are using the language of liberals and rightwingers.

This reminds of the claims made about Trump voters. I think it’s mostly true that we should be polite to one another, but to make blatantly bad choices for yourself, your family, the community, the environment, etc., simply because you’ve been made to feel stupid, or condescended to, or feel dismissed, or perceived to be looked down upon— that’s as irrational as the person is who’s doing the condescension.

So I say to the “vaccine-hesitant” crowd the same as to “on the fence” voters: grow thicker skin, ignore those who are rude, and find someone to educate you or answer your questions and concerns who’s more friendly, polite, and compassionate.

You probably won’t find much of that online. But there are plenty of credible web sites that do explain these things. That’s where I get my information. It’s very easy. If you’re looking to be educated on a philosophy forum, I think that’s a mistake. — Xtrix

This isn't merely about how people interact online. Listening to you and other vocal pro-vaccers here at the forum is like listening to some of the high politicians in the country where I live, and in some other EU countries as well. The same cynical attitude, the same threats, the same simplificationism, the same not listening, the same diversions.

It's so pervasive, so consistent that it cannot be written off as incidental or irrelevant: rather, everything indicates that it is part of their message.

Indeed, the people who ended up with strokes or dead from the vaccine experienced hardly much of an inconvenience.


Perhaps you don't see it, but you yourself are using the language of liberals and rightwingers. — baker

No, I am not. There are such risks with other vaccines and with all or most medications. Everyone is required to accept some risk in order to participate in work and life. What about the risks on construction and mining sites? What about the risks to health from the air-conditioning systems in high rise buildings? Or the risk of fire in such buildings? Or vehicle exhausts in the cities? The risks of air flight and indeed the risks of driving and traveling on public transport? There is always going to be some small percentage of unlucky people. But exactly the same is true of the natural world. We and the other animals we share this planet with are potentially subject to natural disasters. In fact we are by far the greatest risk to the other animals, unfortunately.

What justification do we have for demanding that life is absolutely risk free? On the other hand it doesn't seem unreasonable to require people to do everything they can to minimize risk if there is most likely to be little personal cost involved in doing so. I took the vaccine and I felt like shit for about 24 hours, but I'm not complaining. Most people I have spoken to didn't suffer even that, but just had a mildly sore arm for a day or two.

There is no force in the world that can convince you to accept some data that you want to reject. — Olivier5

Likewise, there is no force in the world that can convince you to reject some data that you want to accept.

So I say I want to do something to your porch, and you're non-responsive. Not very clever or alert on your part. Or maybe you're clever enough to avoid an argument you cannot win. — tim wood

Because might makes right.

the people who ended up with strokes or dead from the vaccine experienced hardly much of an inconvenience. — baker

That's an interesting point. If someone died as a result of being forced by the state to take the vaccine, should his/her family be entitled to retaliate?

That's an interesting point. If someone died as a result of being forced by the state to take the vaccine, should his/her family be entitled to retaliate? — Apollodorus

In the case of mandatory vaccines, yes.

In Slovenia, a 20-year old woman died this week after complications from a vaccine. The minister of health hastened to point out that since the government merely recommended vaccination but didn't mandate it, this means that the state isn't liable.

It's so underhanded it's sickening. On the one hand, the government is using threats and being downright vicious in getting people to get vaccinated. But when something goes wrong, the government plays coy.

But you have no right to infect others — Xtrix

There you go, making wild accusations that I am going around infecting people with covid. Where is your hard evidence that I am doing that?

If we proceed by your logic here, it is perfectly reasonable to accuse you of going around infecting people with HIV at your homosexual orgies. Afterall, I don't need any hard evidence to prove this is in fact the case, I only need a rationale for the possibilty, and it becomes truth.

And in certain democratic states which hold the protecting the right of the individual to be the primary concern of government, it is relevant. — Merkwurdichliebe

I'm sorry, but I have to laugh.
Sure, there are democratic states which hold the protecting the rights of _some_ individuals to be the primary concern of government.

But generally, it has been my experience that one's "constitutionally given" rights are things that one has to fight for and defend, with one's own money and power. And that if one doesn't have those, then it is one's own fault is other people don't respect one's constitutionally given rights.

You know, what eventually moved me to get vaccinated (even though medically for me, this was not a good time) was that I reached the point where I finally lost faith in the system.

No, I am not. There are such risks with other vaccines and with all or most medications. Everyone is required to accept some risk in order to participate in work and life. What about the risks on construction and mining sites? What about the risks to health from the air-conditioning systems in high rise buildings? Or the risk of fire in such buildings? Or vehicle exhausts in the cities? The risks of air flight and indeed the risks of driving and traveling on public transport? There is always going to be some small percentage of unlucky people. But exactly the same is true of the natural world. We and the other animals we share this planet with are potentially subject to natural disasters. In fact we are by far the greatest risk to the other animals, unfortunately.

What justification do we have for demanding that life is absolutely risk free? On the other hand it doesn't seem unreasonable to require people to do everything they can to minimize risk if there is most likely to be little personal cost involved in doing so. I took the vaccine and I felt like shit for about 24 hours, but I'm not complaining. Most people I have spoken to didn't suffer even that, but just had a mildly sore arm for a day or two. — Janus

You are gravely missing the point. It's conveninent to harp on people's risk aversion because that's a simple truism.

But the actual issue isn't risk aversion. It's a simplistic, zombified outlook on life that promises people a good life, but sooner or later lets them down, and then blames them, or, at most, shrugs its shoulders.

Also, see my comments about luck in my reply to Mr. Storm.

You may not have noticed that Merkwurdichliebe just above dismisses 700,000+ US Covid deaths - and presumably 4.5 million worldwide - as any sort of evidence in favor of any limitation on his personal "rights." His a deep dishonesty or craziness or both. Ordinary civility with such a person, imo, a fundamental error. — tim wood

Enough said.

Yet here we are, on an Internet philosophy website, where you would expect to attract people with a modicum of education and thoughtfulness, debating six or seven (essentially) anti-vaxxers.

It's pretty sad, and scary for the future. They of course cannot see this, and never will, but they're in the same boat as these other people. Why? — Xtrix

:up:

Fauci's fingerprints are everywhere at the crime scene. It's a massive crime against humanity that he is at all involved with anything. — MondoR

The article you provided a link to suggests documents leaked by scientists show the Wuhan Lab had an extensive collection of coronaviruses which they intended to genetically engineer and test in bat caves (only a few years before the pandemic).

Where does Fauci or those running the vaccination programme come in? If I remember correctly, there was a photo of Fauci at the Wuhan lab. Is there any other evidence of his involvement?

Where does Fauci or those running the vaccination programme come in? If I remember correctly, there was a photo of Fauci at the Wuhan lab. Is there any other evidence of his involvement? — Down The Rabbit Hole

You need to follow the trail from there beginning, including his advocacy, funding, and then lead in the cover-up. Is there a Nobel Prize for Idiots who helped destroy the Human Race? And this is the savior that everyone is listening to with awe, particularly the highly educated/indoctrinated who think they are sooooooo smart listening to the scientists that helped create the whole disaster.

Is it even worth it to engage with these people?

They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?

I struggle with this. — Xtrix

42 pages later, any nearer to the answer?

People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal. — baker

This is completely wrong. Ask United Airlines, who did exactly that.

I'm very leery of the amount of power corporations have. They employ millions of people, and control when they eat, what they wear, what they can say to customers, etc. -- I don't like it. But, unfortunately, it's perfectly legal. Why? Because these are private tyrannies who can do what they want to do, basically.

In this specific instance, I agree with the policy. But that doesn't mean I like the fact that a handful of executives and boards of directors get to make all of these decisions without any worker input whatsoever.

You are gravely missing the point. It's conveninent to harp on people's risk aversion because that's a simple truism.

But the actual issue isn't risk aversion. It's a simplistic, zombified outlook on life that promises people a good life, but sooner or later lets them down, and then blames them, or, at most, shrugs its shoulders.

Also, see my comments about luck in my reply to Mr. Storm. — baker

I don't know what point you think I am missing unless it is that I don't share your cynical view of what I imagine you take to be the "normal outlook" as expressed in "It's a simplistic, zombified outlook on life that promises people a good life, but sooner or later lets them down, and then blames them, or, at most, shrugs its shoulders."

I can see a certain "caricaturistic" sense in which things could be looked at that way but I think that characterization is simplistic, and completely unhelpful when considering any real world issues.

:up:

The Right has generally supported the right of proprietors of businesses to hire and fire, for whatever reasons they like, as they see fit. And now it is mostly the Right that is squealing about it and calling it an infringement of individual rights. — Janus

This is a point I try to keep reminding people of over and over -- and NOT to stick it to Republicans or conservatives, but to encourage them to change their minds about this one thing, at least.

Listening to you and other vocal pro-vaccers here at the forum is like listening to some of the high politicians in the country where I live, and in some other EU countries as well. The same cynical attitude, the same threats, the same simplificationism, the same not listening, the same diversions. — baker

Well what can I say? I can't help how you perceive me, really, but being as objective as I can be, I don't think all of that is fair. I never claimed to be a nice guy -- but I feel I'm almost always giving evidence to support arguments I make. I'm not simply launching insults. And I don't feel any sense of self-righteousness or cynicism and, despite your claim, listening happens to be my specialty. (That last part is a joke.)

But you have no right to infect others
— Xtrix

There you go, making wild accusations that I am going around infecting people with covid. Where is your hard evidence that I am doing that? — Merkwurdichliebe

I never once said that.

People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.
— baker

This is completely wrong. Ask United Airlines, who did exactly that. — Xtrix

What is wrong?

Did you see the actual notice of termination, the actual wording?

Is it even worth it to engage with these people?

They're immune to facts and they will not change their minds no matter what happens, which is interesting psychologically. But should we engage for the sake of others who are rational yet "on the fence"?

I struggle with this.
— Xtrix

42 pages later, any nearer to the answer? — Down The Rabbit Hole

You got me there. I think the second to last line is my justification for continuing.

People are being suspended or fired from their jobs for not being vaccinated. As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.
— baker

This is completely wrong. Ask United Airlines, who did exactly that.
— Xtrix

What is wrong?

Did you see the actual notice of termination, the actual wording? — baker

What is wrong? The statement that "suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal." That's wrong. It's being done right now, and has already been done. If there are court challenges, they will lose. Just as the "freedom of speech" cases lost in court over banning Trump from Twitter and Facebook. These companies can do what they want to do and, as I mentioned, I don't like this -- but unfortunately, it isn't illegal.

As far as "seeing the actual notice of termination, the actual wording": no, I haven't. I don't work for these companies. But it's been reported pretty widely that some employees (though fairly few) have been terminated for not complying with vaccination policy. I don't see this as any different than what's been happening for years at many companies that require hepatitis or TB/tests and shots.

Is it even worth it to engage with these people? — Xtrix

Never. Ever since humanity replaced geocentric theory for heliocentric theory, there was nothing but horrid weapons of war and disease. Nobody ever got hurt (or at least disintegrated and their homes irradiated) when we listened to our religious overlords.

As far as "seeing the actual notice of termination, the actual wording": no, I haven't. I don't work for these companies. But it's been reported pretty widely that some employees (though fairly few) have been terminated for not complying with vaccination policy. — Xtrix

As long as vaccination is not actually legally mandatory, suspending or firing someone for not being vaccinated is illegal.

The actual wording of the termination is important. If it said something like "failure to comply with vaccination law" in a jurisdiction where covid vaccination is not legally mandatory, then it can be challenged in court.

But if the wording was something like "failure to comply with the demands of the employer", then it cannot be challenged (or hardly).

IOW, the actual reason for why a person was terminated needn't be the one specified on the termination document. Every day, people get fired for being fat, for getting a tattoo, for being of the wrong religion (all of which would be illegal), but the termination document doesn't list those as reasons, but something more general.