So? You say it as if that's wrong. — TheMadFool

As to what is, yes. As to your beliefs or after-the-fact theories, you can have of those what you wish.

Those are waypoints we've already crossed. I'm disinclined to return to ground already covered. Sorry. — TheMadFool

Well, I find there that you know nothing about death. Not a criticism, for I suppose no one does. The problem comes when you are confused both about what you know and what you think you know.

I'm employing conventional terms, part of the vernacular. I don't understand your objections. — TheMadFool

If by "creatures" you mean only human beings, then I am confused. But I am then in good company, because even God, with his creatures great and small, would be confused.

Pain is the true prophet, not sleep like 180 Proof thinks, of death! Pain exists to keep death at bay ... — TheMadFool

A "prophet" heralds the coming of his god(dess) and does not "keep her at bay". Sleep, not "pain", is a glimpse, a reheasal or reminder, a nightly practiced welcoming of Death; "pain" merely signals proximity to one's demise which almost always one involuntarily retreats from – in other words, "pain" is the demon tormenting one to temptations of painlessness like a prophet of the devil Life (à la gnosis).

People seem to prefer giving up if the alternative is that they have to do work; at least until the problem is looming over them and it’s too late to do anything but regret not taking action sooner. — Pfhorrest

I think this is a very good point. It seems as though, while people may fear death, it is usually remote enough for them to ignore it, and even pretend that it does not exist. Death may be something people fear, but it is not the only thing they fear either.

n the Phaedo, Socrates says:

the one aim of those who practice philosophy in the proper manner is to practice for dying and death — Merkwurdichliebe

:up: Indeed, I find that to be one of the most memorable sayings of Socrates.

On reflection, of course, if there is no life after death we have nothing to fear. And, if there is, we have everything to gain. Unless we have engaged in actions that lead us to believe that we may be subject to judgement and punishment in the other world. In which case it would boil down to a secret fear of punishment. — Apollodorus

Partly agree. If there is torment to be found after your death, that does not necessarily mean you are being punished. For all you know, the life you are living is a temporary lessening of the torment that may have preceded and will succeed it. As if you are drowning eternally, and life represents a brief gasp of air before you go back under. A frightening prospective, in my opinion.

It strikes me watching as I sometimes do old films that everyone in the film and all listed in the credits are dead. And we can watch films from before 1910 of city life, the bustle of downtown or the train station with an arriving train. And all the vanities, hopes, joys of all pictured, dead. Draw what lessons you will. — tim wood

Yes, I do the same thing as well, it is a good memento mori.

I think death is oftentimes frightening if you are attached to things in the world. Viewing old films and realizing that everyone in it is dead shows that attachments are in vain.

I am reminded of Zapffe's analysis, that humans find themselves in a universe that is incapable of satisfying their spiritual needs. Humans naturally have attachments, but these attachments are temporary and will eventually vanish with death. While humans can modify the way they think about attachments (e.g. Buddhism, etc), this is ultimately not a natural state. Just as an example, I will vacillate between accepting (and even looking forward to) death, and clinging to my attachments. The ideal scenario would be to undergo something like death (so I no longer experience various burdens of life), but somehow keep in my possession the things that I care about. Which is just impossible.

What I am trying to say is that we may not know really whether we fear death until it looms before us in an immediate way. — Jack Cummins

I think you correct in this, similar to what @Pfhorrest said earlier. Unless death is at your doorstep, it can seem almost unreal.

One thing I think sometimes gets confused with death is aging. Even if someone like Valerie Solanas, or David Sinclaire (author of Lifespan: Why We Age – and Why We Don’t Have To), is correct that we can eliminate aging, we will never eliminate death. Everyone will eventually die.

Although aging certainly has many drawbacks, I think that one of the silver linings is that it gives a certain structure and predictability to life. People plan their lives out in accordance to how much time they roughly estimate they have. When people die "from old age", it's not really surprising, because it was expected all along. And while people do sometimes die early, it's not the norm.

If aging is eliminated, then the only way that people will die is if they suffer some traumatic accident, or they kill themselves. And unless graceful suicide services are made available to people, death will become the sudden vanishing of a person. Here one day, gone the next, with no foreshadowing. Everyone who does not commit suicide will die in a sudden traumatic accident.

I will vacillate between accepting — darthbarracuda

I don't know your age. I am of an age when death is on my horizon, though not yet close. I have decided/matured to not want anything new, but to wear out what I have, even as I continue to take care of and maintain those things. I find the wear on things somehow, someway reassuring. As if when my boots go, then I ought to be ready. And the familiarity of those things keeps me grounded. Or so I'm thinking at the moment. If one of my lottery tickets pays off, I may try a different strategy.

Nicely put; I like that a lot.

You don't fear death? Why? — TheMadFool

I do not fear death. There are two ways this can go: A) there is nothing after death, in which case, I have nothing to fear, as that which is me will cease to exist. Or B) there is something after death, making death another transition, and therefore, outside of being unknown, has no reason to be feared. Either way, not worth being afraid of.

My official stand, should anyone be interested, is option two. Another transition.

Death / thought and belief about death, is the source of Nihilism, Pessimism and Existentialism.
It is one of the mysterious events in life. No one seems wanting to face or talk about it. Only Philosophy can deal with it logically and intellectually. The upshot seems, ignore it, accept it or deny or try to avoid it. It is a personal choice.

Do we really fear death? Yes, we do. But they soon realise that fear will not deal with the problem, hence they take the philosophical stance or turn to religion.

But most of them seem just taken away into the dark abyss of death, when it strikes, without even the perceptual and emotional embattling with the fear or knowledge.

Everyone will eventually die. — darthbarracuda

Challenge accepted.

My official stand, should anyone be interested, is option two. Another transition. — Book273

Then, you do fear death! By the way, this really isn't what I want to discuss. Thanks though!

No, I find there is simply a preponderance of evidence to support option two.

No, I find there is simply a preponderance of evidence to support option two. — Book273

:ok: Are you eager to die?

Also, how am I to tell the difference between someone who suicides (no fear of death) and you (no fear of death)? Why aren't you dead?

Everyone will eventually die.
— darthbarracuda

Challenge accepted. — Pfhorrest

:rofl:

A "prophet" heralds the coming of his god(dess) and does not "keep her at bay". Sleep, not "pain", is a glimpse, a reheasal or reminder, a nightly practiced welcoming of Death; "pain" merely signals proximity to one's demise which almost always one involuntarily retreats from – in other words, "pain" is the demon tormenting one to temptations of painlessness like a prophet of the devil Life (à la gnosis). — 180 Proof

I wasn't clear enough. My bad! Pain has dual functionality - it signals injury and death (heralds death) and for that reason serves as an early warning system that can help us take preventive measures (death defense).

Ergo, I stand committed to the fact that Algea (pain) is Thanatos' prophet and not Hypnos (sleep)!

Are you eager to die? — TheMadFool

Not in the traditional sense of eager. More like anticipating with curiosity. I have a number of good reasons to continue living so while those remain, why rush the ending? I am rather happy with life and see a great deal of wonder in it. Unlike most suicides that end their life as a means to end physical or emotional pain, I really have none of that to speak of. Suicides are often afraid of death, but are more afraid of continuing on as they are currently living.

Now remove my current reasons to continue living and increase my boredom....suicide becomes a more likely option as things that keep me inclined to remain here decrease.

Not in the traditional sense of eager. More like anticipating with curiosity. I have a number of good reasons to continue living so while those remain, why rush the ending? I am rather happy with life and see a great deal of wonder in it. Unlike most suicides that end their life as a means to end physical or emotional pain, I really have none of that to speak of. Suicides are often afraid of death, but are more afraid of continuing on as they are currently living.

Now remove my current reasons to continue living and increase my boredom....suicide becomes a more likely option as things that keep me inclined to remain here decrease. — Book273

So, you want to live!

1. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter whether you live or die.

2. If you want to live it matters whether you live or die

:chin:

1. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter whether you live or die. — TheMadFool

There is a flaw in your assumption. Not fearing death does not mean I have no preference at this time.

I am not afraid of wearing boots either, but currently shoes make more sense, so shoes it is.

I am not afraid of death and am currently enjoying life, therefore I have preference to continue living. THAT does not equate to a fear of death, merely that I am still more inclined to living than dying at this point. The question, if you recall, was do we fear death, not do we currently prefer being alive. If I preferred death to life, I would be dead already, that I am responding means I elect to live awhile longer.

There is a flaw in your assumption — Book273

1. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter whether you live or die

If 1 is flawed then, the following seems more suited to your tastes.

2. If you're not afraid to die then it doesn't matter if you die.

3. If you want to live then it matters if you die.

:chin:

Ergo, I stand committed to the fact that Algea (pain) is Thanatos' prophet and not Hypnos (sleep)! — TheMadFool

Persist in error as you wish. The intuition of the ancient Greeks who paired Thanatos & Hypnos as siblings speaks to me and informs my translating them as 'god-prophet' relationship in parody of the Islamic Shahada. "Pain", my friend, corresponds to life and painlessness – approximated in sleep, or coma – corresponds to death. This is the human condition, our facticity; deny it as much as you like. Remember, "pain" comes with happenstance but, ceteris paribus, sleep like death is inherently – physiologically – inevitable. :death: :flower:

Everyone who does not commit suicide will die in a sudden traumatic accident. — darthbarracuda

Accidents are what backups are for. Frequent, widely distributed offsite backups.

Whether we fear death or not, it will come anyway! And when we are dead, we will not KNOW that we are dead. However, at the moment of death, we will know we are dying, and that knowledge may create enormous fear, but it won’t last for long! We all know that whatever will be, will be, so why worry about such things which are beyond our control? Go with the flow and let the cards fall were they may!

I have decided/matured to not want anything new, but to wear out what I have, even as I continue to take care of and maintain those things. I find the wear on things somehow, someway reassuring. As if when my boots go, then I ought to be ready. And the familiarity of those things keeps me grounded. — tim wood

Well put :clap:

Exactly.

Persist in error as you which. The intuition of the ancient Greeks who paired Thanatos & Hypnos as siblings speaks to me and informs my translating them as 'god-prophet' relationship in parody of the Islamic Shahada. "Pain", my friend, corresponds life and painlessness – approximated in sleep, or coma – corresponds to death. This is the human condition, our facticity; deny it as much as you like. Remember, "pain" comes with happenstance but, ceteris paribus, sleep like death is inherently – physiologically – inevitable. :death: — 180 Proof

:heart: Let's agree to disagree. I'd just like to share this with you without the intention to argue. Illness leads/might lead to death. The most common complaint people have when they fall is pain. Pain :point: Sick :point: Death

Birth leads to death, Fool. :roll: But okay, agree to disagree. Pax.

Death induces fear for those living. It's not a problem at the moment of death or afterwards, anymore than prior to birth the prospect for existence induced fear.

But since we are living death often induces fear.

Birth leads to death, Fool. :roll: But okay, agree to disagree. Pax. — 180 Proof

Rule no. 1: The boss is always right!

You're the boss!

:rofl: Rule no. 0:

One pays a teacher badly if one always remains nothing but a pupil. And why do you not want to pluck at my wreath? You revere me; but what if your reverence tumbles one day? Beware lest a statue slay you. — Thus Spoke Zarathustra

:wink:

:lol:

This question might be more suited to psychology than philosophy, but in general I am still chewing on the question as to why people don't seem to do more proactive matters to forestall their deaths, if they really do not want to die. Why are we so busy doing so many other things rather than trying to solve death?

I was reminded of a quote from one of my favorite novels, Journey to the End of the Night:

It looks like any man has things he is willing to die for, quickly and gladly. Except that a chance to die pleasantly, the chance he's looking for, doesn't always materialize. So he goes off somewhere to die as best he can . . . He sticks around on earth and everybody takes him for a jerk and a coward, but the truth is that he simply lacks conviction. He only seems to be a coward.

Robinson was not prepared to die under the conditions offered. Under different conditions he might have been delighted.

All in all, death is something like a marriage.

This particular death didn't appeal to him, that was the long and the short of it. — Céline

Basically, it seems to me that while people may profess that they do not wish to die, what they really mean is that they do not wish to die yet. But ultimately, everyone wants to die, everyone hopes for a pleasurable death, everyone looks forward to finally letting-go. The trouble is that dying right is tricky.

I don't mean to say that people only ever wish to die, just that in everyone resides a desire (among others) to die. This conflict of desires, of living and dying, may help explain why people simultaneously claim they do not wish to die, but yet seem to do the minimal to prevent it.

They say, lifelong atheist Philosopher, A.J. Ayer had converted to a Christian just before his imminent death. Could religion combat the fear of death? Could it be, in the end, what had been invented for?