Fear of Death

Tom Storm

How deep and transformative is the well documented fear of death? The fact that one’s life must end is understood to invoke in most people a kind of existential terror. While I am not keen to die immediately, I have never shared this terror. Should I die in the night, so be it. I’m ready. I’ve prepared my will and I've set up steps for when the time comes.

Life ending reveals nothing to me about what happens before it ends. My enjoyment of a book, music, a meal or a movie is not diminished by the knowledge that it is going to end. One enjoys the ride, the experience, the moments. Or - one hates the ride, the experience and the moments. Whatever is the case. Ditto life.

It’s often argued that all the achievements and struggles of life mean nothing if it all ends in blackness. How so? Aren’t the moments themselves worthwhile? Is eternity the only criterion of value? This seems ugly to me.

Heidegger famously wrote, “If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself.”

I don’t fully understand notions of ‘being free to become myself’ - sounds like a 20th century existentialist trope. Even though death is not a concern to me, I'm not sure I have a better grasp of my becoming, or an enhanced feeling of freedom as a consequence.

Derrida appears to say something similar, 'Such a caring for death, an awakening that keeps vigil over death, a conscience that looks death in the face, is another name for freedom.”

So, an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? Does that resonate?

Of course all this is flipped for some of us beholden to forms of theism with its the notion of judgement and potential eternal punishment in the fires of The Abyss. A vestigial fear of this seems present even amongst some strident atheists.

What do others think about the role of death in their lives and the concomitant role it plays in their philosophical speculations. Was Montaigne right to say, 'To philosophise is to learn how to die.'

schopenhauer1

What do others think about the role of death in their lives and the concomitant role it plays in their philosophical speculations. Was Montaigne right to say, 'To philosophise is to learn how to die.' — Tom Storm

Creating more life is scarier, Sisyphean, and more ever-present than the "spectre of death". But that being said, if you are in your deathbed, actually feeling the impending inevitability, then the existentialist ideas might come crashing in about it. But otherwise, I agree more-or-less that the notion of death is often just reified romanticism.

Tom Storm

reified romanticism. — schopenhauer1

I like that.

T Clark

How deep and transformative is the well documented fear of death? The fact that one’s life must end is understood to invoke in most people a kind of existential terror. While I am not keen to die immediately, I have never shared this terror. Should I die in the night, so be it. I’m ready. I’ve prepared my will and I've set up steps for when the time comes. — Tom Storm

I posted this graph from the web a month or so ago:

Fear%20of%20death.png

Here is the source it came from:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/959347/fear-of-death-in-the-us/

So, no, death does not appear to invoke existential terror in a large portion of the population.

What do others think about the role of death in their lives — Tom Storm

My attitude is similar to yours. I'm having a good time. I'd rather not go right now, but I don't want to live forever either. I'm trying to stay healthy, but I just ate a Milky Way bar.

BC

↪Tom Storm

Woody Allen's Joke–he wasn't afraid of dying, he just didn't want to be there when it happened–touches on one part of the fear of death: The process of dying, on the way to being dead. Dying isn't always terrible, but sometimes disease or injury can be a pretty bad experience before it kills us.

Are people afraid of being dead or are they afraid of dying?

As for being dead, the imagination of the living can make death something between heaven or hell on the one hand, and a perpetual nothing on the other hand. I like the nothingness of death which some say is like the nothingness before being gestated and born.

As for dying, Buddha said to his gathered disciples (as he himself was dying), "Decay is inherent to all compounded beings. Therefore, press on with diligence." Something like that. Translations may vary.

Ciceronianus

↪Tom Storm

The idea that acceptance of death results in freedom or least is freeing is ancient. You see it in Lucretius, Epicurus, Seneca and others. But I think the Christian focus on death and its disdain of life as sinful transformed death, making it particularly fearsome; far more than it was for pagan philosophers, making the acceptance of death seem peculiarly liberating.

plaque flag

Aren’t the moments themselves worthwhile? Is eternity the only criterion of value? — Tom Storm

This is possibly (?) the freedom or self-becoming Heidegger and Derrida had in mind. If I stop desperately trying to identify with something lasting and indestructible -- conceived as the only way something can be 'truly' real -- then time becomes mine in a new way. Like Sartre/Roquentin in the cafe listening to the notes from the saxophone, dying away, an irrepeatable experience. Is it better to die young, perhaps because one lived with a beautiful and reckless courage ? As opposed to a safer but less vivid longevity ? Who decides this ?

Since no man knows aught of all he leaves, what is it to leave betimes ?

BC

↪T Clark

I'm finding the later part of this play to be quite enjoyable. I too try to stay healthy, so I can continue playing my role all the way to the last line. I quite smoking decades ago; I drink very little; I never used recreational drugs beyond a few joints (total); I exercise within my diminished capacity. I do like full fat ice cream and prefer butter, in as much moderation as I can manage. There are so many great books to read, so much to learn, which is good in itself.

But... it might end at any time, which after 76 years won't be like the lost opportunities of people dying before they have found their way in the world (which takes 20 or 30 years).

plaque flag

So, an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? Does that resonate? — Tom Storm

Is it more like the acceptance of death is precisely that liberation from dread? Perhaps dread is a terrified resistance to the endless rush forward of life, as if one note from the horn refused to die to make way for the next.

Is the expansion of identity precisely the destruction of its pettier identifications ? Perhaps angels can only fly naked.

Great thread, by the way. I've been chewing on this issue.

Tom Storm

I just ate a Milky Way bar. — T Clark

Nice. Interesting survey.

Are people afraid of being dead or are they afraid of dying? — BC

The latter I would have thought.

Therefore, press on with diligence. — BC

Almost sounds Stoic.

This is possibly (?) the freedom or self-becoming Heidegger and Derrida had in mind. — green flag

I wondered about that when I read it back to myself.

If I stop desperately trying to identify with some lasting and indestructible -- conceived as the only way something can be 'truly' real -- then time becomes mine in a new way. — green flag

That's good.

I quite smoking decades ago; I drink very little; I never used recreational drugs beyond a few joints (total); I exercise within my diminished capacity. — BC

Me too. No booze or smoking for many years. I walk through city streets for exercise but stay away from the country - I am immune to landscapes.

the acceptance of death is precisely that liberation from dread? — green flag

Maybe. What I do find startling as I get older is the rush of time going by. I have ties older than some of the kids who work for me. It's remarkable how little and how much you can do in one life.

Moliere

↪Ciceronianus

Epicurus and the tetrapharmakos is what came to mind first for me. Glad to see someone else mention that line of thought.

↪Tom Storm

-- I'd say what you feel about death is the healthy place to be, insofar that it is a genuine feeling. My feelings on death fluctuate. I certainly fear it in the sense of avoiding death -- even fireworks make me jump!

So when I say to myself "Death is nothing to us" I mean to remind myself that my fears are temporal. It's natural to fear death, and it is good to remember that this fear isn't a real thing you can defeat. For some of us that part is not so easy to accept.

Fooloso4

Woody Allen's Joke–he wasn't afraid of dying, he just didn't want to be there when it happened — BC

When I was teaching philosophy I thought about teaching a class based on his jokes.

Tom Storm

So when I say to myself "Death is nothing to us" I mean to remind myself that my fears are temporal. It's natural to fear death, and it is good to remember that this fear isn't a real thing you can defeat. For some of us that part is not so easy to accept. — Moliere

I think that's fair. I understand fear in the process (the messiness) of dying. But being dead seems like a doddle...

I recall a colleague telling me that her father had died aged 96. 'It was such a surprise,' she said. I thought the surprise was it took so long for him to go...

Tom Storm

I think this is my favorite song about death.... yes I know, Bill Shatner. I always laugh at this.

Moliere

↪Tom Storm

:D

I like that one. The whole album is great.

A couple of songs about death that have been ringing about my mind:

EDIT: Changed the video for Leonard Cohen to the album cover. I just posted the video thinking it would have the song but upon watching saw it was more than that.

plaque flag

I wondered about that when I read it back to myself. — Tom Storm

Your post is helping me work this out. The earliest lecture/draft of Being and Time has everyday or inauthentic running like a rat in the wheel of a clock that tells everyone's and therefore nobody's time. If we look at how Heidegger and Derrida and Emerson lived, they had to mean something like the joy of courageous creativity. But I think it's more than fair to include joking with the wife over coffee about the pets. To obsess over fame or getting paid would, as I see it, put us back in that clock, insisting that we are machines for converting time into social capital. It may be the case that those who live carelessly 'accidentally' sometimes create such capital. But when I hear great music for instance, I experience it as a gift and not a request. If poetry comes not as naturally as the leaves to a tree it had better not come at all.

plaque flag

Maybe. What I do find startling as I get older is the rush of time going by. I have ties older than some of the kids who work for me. It's remarkable how little and how much you can do in one life. — Tom Storm

:up:

I think (?) that the rushing by of time as we age is because the vast machinery of a personality has long been assembled and is now settled and has been running without much trouble. Of course that goes with a lifestyle that keeps you out of trouble. I can't be what the young me tolerated from companions in retrospect, but then they had to tolerate that younger me.

T Clark

But... it might end at any time, which after 76 years won't be like the lost opportunities of people dying before they have found their way in the world (which takes 20 or 30 years). — BC

Yes. Too late for us to die young.

Tom Storm

↪Moliere

Yes! Especially the Cohen (as he was dying himself).

Your post is helping me work this out. The earliest lecture/draft of Being and Time has everyday or inauthentic running like a rat in the wheel of a clock that tells everyone's and therefore nobody's time. If we look at how Heidegger and Derrida and Emerson lived, they had to mean something like the joy of courageous creativity. But I think it's more than fair to include joking with the wife over coffee about the pets. To obsess over fame or getting paid would, as I see it, put us back in that clock, insisting that we are machines for converting time into social capital. It may be the case that those who live carelessly 'accidentally' sometimes create such capital. But when I hear great music for instance, I experience it as a gift and not a request. If poetry comes not as naturally as the leaves to a tree it had better not come at all. — green flag

That's a very nice formulation. I suspect the joy of courageous creativity helps people to bear some of life's greatest burdens. What's your take on the desire to make one's mark in the world - not necessarily to be recognized, but to leave a legacy, even if no one knows it was you?

Banno

↪T Clark

It would be interesting to see who the folk who are afeared of death are. My working hypothesis is that they are more christian than atheist.

plaque flag

What's your take on the desire to make one's mark in the world - not necessarily to be recognized, but to leave a legacy, even if no one knows it was you? — Tom Storm

I suspect that we are evolved to enjoy bringing resources back to the tribe. We tend to love children and pets, just for being there. It's even one of the great joys of life to nurture.

I think the truest and deepest art (I include philosophy and drama) comes from a similar place. It is fundamentally self-transcending and directed at least to a virtual community that it may even be helping to create. The desire is to bring the gift. If it's experienced as truly a gift and of value, then its assimilation is not only or even primarily recognition but the empowerment of the tribe or species. It's like wanting your baby to eat the good food you made.

I ~~joke~~ that there's only one philosopher/artist, one 'spirit' or Geist, that gets poured differently into different skulls, to run its adversarial self-expansion and self-exploration routines. As Feuerbach noted, every species is self-loving, self-asserting, and glories in itself. When humans love human children, it's like they are loving the image of their own eternity. In art and philosophy, it's as if they are adoring their own transcendence, the glory of their minds. "For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage." A generalized polyamory beyond the flesh ? An onanistic orgy of the singular Dionysos reassembled?

Earlier we contemplated whether freedom was doing without identification with the eternal. In this context, I think Schopenhauer nails it. We know on some level that death is unreal. Our little self, however unique, is still essentially replaceable. There are some hangnails we can talk about, but I'd like to see what you make of this.

*Last thought. The individual body cannot reproduce itself, which mocks our personal egoism.
The flesh itself betrays our need for and directedness toward others. Until rich dudes achieve immortality and sleep in a pile of sexbots who speak 17 languages.

frank

So, an acceptance/knowledge of death is a liberation from dread and anxiety and an open door to freedom? Does that resonate? — Tom Storm

Life is an arc. If you're on the climbing side of it, I think you're supposed to have an aversion to death, because you're headed in the other direction: into life, discovering who you are, making plans, exploding forth your potential on the poor unsuspecting.

If your roller coaster car as past the zero slope zone and you're headed downward, I don't know if aversion is still part of it. Maybe if a person has unfinished business? If they never learned to live? So they're still looking for a chance at authenticity (as if they would take it if you handed it to them.)

I see a lot of people die. Even old people are sometimes afraid if their minds are still there. I figure some people have so much love for life that they cling to it till the very end. That's kind of cool.

Banno

↪Tom Storm

If one ceases to exist on death, then there is no "what it is like" to be dead. Hence fear of being dead is irrational.

Concern for the process of dying is reasonable.

Death is a negative if considered as putting a limit or restriction on what one is able to do and enjoy. On the whole, and contra the view of some hereabouts, being alive is better than being dead.

Grief at the passing of another is reasonable.

Concern for those left after one has died is also reasonable.

Paine

I think a lot about how memory changes its role as it becomes harder to do.
If I am a ball thrown, describing a parabola through space and time, it seems like there is no gap between when I was trying to escape my past and when I realized the connection was so tenuous in the first place. No effort or resignation was asked from me at that point in the orbit.

I can see how this shift relates to the anxiety in dreams. Many of the roles are the same but something has changed.

T Clark

My working hypothesis is that they are more christian than atheist. — Banno

Perhaps more prejudice than hypothesis.

Banno

↪T Clark

Same thing.

A new study examines all robust, available data on how fearful we are of what happens once we shuffle off this mortal coil. They find that atheists are among those least afraid of dying...and, perhaps not surprisingly, the very religious. — Study into who is least afraid of death

frank

Hence fear of being dead is irrational. — Banno

Maybe. Most people are about 98% irrational.

Manuel

The sense of your life mattering while you achieve things only holds good for a moment in time, afterwards, those that know you will mourn, family and friends, and then they'll be gone too.

Nevertheless, given this is a fact, you might as well do something you find rewarding or interesting, if you can - it's what you make of it, to a large extent.

Death can give a sense of urgency for things you want to do, or finish - and for this reason is excellent motivation. But one should also consider the case, that no evil can last long enough that a mortal has to endure it forever.

I strongly suspect that death itself is literally a non-issue for you (in general) - but it means a massive amount to those close to you - somewhat of a paradox.

Finally, we should consider that, something like 99.999999999999....% of everything that IS, has no consciousness or awareness, so it shouldn't be as strange as we sometimes make it out to be.

Tom Storm

Maybe. Most people are about 98% irrational. — frank

Most people are 98% dead....

Sorry, a cheap shot I couldn't resist.

Manuel

Actually, what would be interesting to consider is a situation in which we cannot die, no matter what we tried to do.

I wonder how things would play out. Overpopulation would be a big issue. But how would it feel like, knowing that you will always live?

It's unclear to me...

frank

Most people are 98% dead.... — Tom Storm

:razz:

Fear of Death

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