That's true. But it also applies to Mathematics. And Energy is essentially an abstract relationship (800 degrees Celsius of the match, relative to 72 degrees of the tinder) between hot & cold, for instance. The potential is in the ratio, which can actualize changes in matter. — Gnomon

But again you can argue that is just out of perception. Try to define any perceived quanta of energy or elemental particle through an analogy where you cannot just choose a medium like a star for heat, or an atomic nucleus for distance. Can you think of any information that represents the universe without needing a physical or energetic phenomenon to explain it?

The radius of an electron is a property of an electron. We stick a label of information on it to categorise it at an abstract level. When a programmer compiles a program, the if statements and for loops are no longer relevant as information, it's just machine code after compilation, or a program and the output it creates happens whether these statements were ever present in the first place. And once the program is run, 1 or million times, its output occurs with or without any changes to the labels. Could the universe be the same?

If the universe was designed, what use is the information to the designer anymore once it is all set in motion?

If you ask me how I feel, and I reply, you can argue that my response contains an abstract representation of how I feel, and that it contains information. But if you measure my height, have you retrieved an abstract representation of my height, or just understood the reality of my dimensions and created that abstraction yourself?

If we cannot create an analogy that involves physical objects to describe information, then surely information is dependent on the objects energy, quanta, properties themselves. Would the universe not be more efficient if it doesn't require the concept of information as the inherent properties already define it.

Do we disassemble them into what they are physically using just our own imaginations?

This seems good in the context of your own blog, and a continuation of your own narrative. If you don't mind, I would suggest you spend less time apologizing for lack of formal qualification, and that you provide a different perspective / interpretation. These are irrelevant considerations given you provide citations, references, and an argument.

What I found interesting was the background information - Plato, enlightenment, Shannon, etc. For the article, I would briefly narrate the history, and then jump straight in to the hyper relevant and factual stuff. "Information → Energy → Matter". How everything is information, and how information connects everything. How the universe is an information processing system. How information creates the patterns that entangle energy and matter. How human consciousness is the most evolved or complex example of this.

This is just my own bias however. I tend to prefer things in list or point form, logically reduced and to the point - this is just me, there is nothing wrong with how you have expressed yourself. :smile:

This is just my own bias however. I tend to prefer things in list or point form, logically reduced and to the point - this is just me, there is nothing wrong with how you have expressed yourself. — Pop

I do provide some lists in the blog, on specific topics. But Enformationism is such a holistic wide-ranging inter-related concept, that it's hard for me to think of it in a linear 1 - 2 - 3 format. If I had some training in philosophy or mathematics, that itemization might come more naturally. Instead, I'm self-taught in a haphazard manner. And most of my philosophical learning has occurred after I retired 11 years ago. As a Designer-Architect, I do tend to think holistically, rather than reductively & sequentially, like an engineer, or scientist.

My Enformationism thought process began with a kernel concept, based on an observation by a quantum physicist, speaking of the "superposition" of "virtual" particles of matter. He said something like : "it's all information; nothing but information." From that all-is-information notion, I just jumped into the middle, and started flailing around in all directions, like a beginning swimmer.

In an early blog post, I tried to summarize the concept of EnFormAction . So, I added two lists, defining that neologism from two different perspectives (link below). Here's another list, presenting a summary of my speculation on how Information evolved into Consciousness. But it assumes a prior understanding of some essential features of Information, beyond the simplistic definition by Shannon. And each upward step in complexity is the result of inherent Self-Organization, built-in to the creative energy of EnFormAction. :smile:

Progression of Evolution :

1. World Program as Singularity
2a. EnFormAction as Causation
2b. Physics as Energy
3. Chemistry as Matter
4. Biology as Life
5. Psychology as Mind
6. Sociology as Culture, Religion, Politics
7. Philosophy as Reflective Mind
8. Cosmology as Worldview
9. Artificial Intelligence as self-programming Computers, Robots
10. Next . . . . . Omega Point deity?
http://bothandblog.enformationism.info/page29.html

What is EnFormAction? : http://bothandblog2.enformationism.info/page29.html

But again you can argue that is just out of perception. — Paul S

Yes, but our perceptions of objects in physical reality are immediately interpreted into subjective mental abstractions (concepts), representing the ultimate abstractions underlying the real world. Here's my review of cognitive psychologist Donald Hoffman's “Interface theory of perception”. :smile:

Interface Reality : http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page21.html

The Case Against Reality : https://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Reality-Evolution-Truth-ebook/dp/B07JR1FDXH/ref=sr_1_1?crid=J8QCEZE2ZI2N&dchild=1&keywords=the+case+against+reality+why+evolution+hid+the+truth+from+our+eyes&qid=1614035239&s=books&sprefix=The+Case+Against+Reality%2Cdigital-text%2C234&sr=1-1

I do tend to think holistically, rather than reductively & sequentially — Gnomon

This tends to be the trend these days, so it is I who is old fashioned and reductionist. I was really just thinking about the time most people ( including myself ) put into reading these things. My web stats show an average retention of 3 minutes. So I tend to think short and to the point is the way to go, but I could be wrong - its not as if I know the answer, I was just stating my personal preference. I find your style is easy to read and understand, so that is half the battle won. :up:

the "superposition" of "virtual" particles of matter. — Gnomon

That's how I imagine a thought works: the object of thought is the nucleus, whilst ones knowledge is in superposition of it. Of course one's knowledge can only assume a partial superposition. :sad:

The idea that energy is the fundamental element is deficient, as energy has to have form, so there is something informing it. Of course the logical difficulty here is that energy and information ( enformation ) are inseparable, so that's why I wonder if one is a quality of the other? Or is matter a quality of the two together? - I feel there is something in this, but I just cant quite get at it - yet!

And each upward step in complexity is the result of inherent Self-Organization, built-in to the creative energy of EnFormAction. :smile: — Gnomon

Yes, the observation is that it is a self organizing universe where each layer of self organization gives rise to an emergent property. This is well illustrated in cells where different patterns of amino acids combined create cellular proteins of various different function. This would be the systems / embodied perspective, but complexity theory really brings it home.

This is just my own bias however. I tend to prefer things in list or point form, logically reduced and to the point - this is just me, there is nothing wrong with how you have expressed yourself. :smile: — Pop

Here's another attempt to present the Enformationism concept as a numbered or bulleted list. It's adapted from the website.

Abstract of the Enformationism Thesis :

1. The Enformationism hypothesis begins with the ancient, but still controversial, theory that the fundamental “substance” of reality is not sensible energy or tangible matter, but abstract spirit, soul, or mind. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/
2. Yet it concludes that those mysterious, metaphysical, mental building blocks of reality are nothing stranger than the ordinary, mundane objects of thought that we take for granted in our everyday thinking. https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0076.xml
3. Axiom : Consciousness is real and primal. Hence, Mental concepts are categorically and hierarchically prior to material things. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/
4. Premise 1 : At the quantum level of reality matter is essentially reduced to mathematical information.
5. Premise 2 : The essence of mind and thought is Information, which consists of patterns and relationships between things.
6. Conclusion : Matter and Energy are condensed forms of abstract, ethereal information.
7. Therefore, the 19th century, reductive, physical, scientific Paradigm of Materialism should be updated to include the knowledge emerging from 21st century, holistic, metaphysical Information Sciences.

The idea that energy is the fundamental element is deficient, as energy has to have form, so there is something informing it. Of course the logical difficulty here is that energy and information ( enformation ) are inseparable, so that's why I wonderif one is a quality of the other? Or is matter a quality of the two together? - I feel there is something in this, but I just cant quite get at it - yet! — Pop

Yes. Most Cosmologists take it for granted that Energy and Natural Laws existed prior to the Big Bang. And they assume that Life and Mind are merely accidental products of collisions between matter & energy. I have tried to reverse the order of priority in the thesis and blog. But most materialist philosophers find it difficult to imagine that something as ethereal as Mind Stuff could be the ultimate reality. :worry:

Energy :
Scientists define “energy” as the ability to do work, but don't know what energy is. They assume it's an eternal causative force that existed prior to the Big Bang, along with mathematical laws. Energy is a positive or negative relationship between things, and physical Laws are limitations on the push & pull of those forces. So, all they know is what Energy does, which is to transform material objects in various ways. Energy itself is amorphous & immaterial. So if you reduce energy to its essence of information, it seems more akin to mind than matter. Likewise, all we know of God is what it does : create. That's why I think of Energy as the “power” aspect of the willpower of G*D, which is guided by the intentional (lawlike) “will” aspect. Together I call them : EnFormAction.
http://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page8.html

1. The Enformationism hypothesis begins with the ancient, but still controversial, theory that the fundamental “substance” of reality is not sensible energy or tangible matter, but abstract spirit, soul, or mind. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/ — Gnomon

What is wrong with - Enformationism posits that the fundamental substances of reality is not energy or matter but mind.

2. Yet it concludes that those mysterious, metaphysical, mental building blocks of reality are nothing stranger than the ordinary, mundane objects of thought that we take for granted in our everyday thinking. https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0076.xml — Gnomon

:up:

3. Axiom : Consciousness is real and primal. Hence, Mental concepts are categorically and hierarchically prior to material things. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/ — Gnomon

:up:

Abiogenisis theory from a dozen or so perspectives / disciplines agrees that self organisation led to life. Self organization = Consciousness! Every moment of consciousness is a moment of self organization.

4. Premise 1 : At the quantum level of reality matter is essentially reduced to mathematical information.
5. Premise 2 : The essence of mind and thought is Information, which consists of patterns and relationships between things.
6. Conclusion : Matter and Energy are condensed forms of abstract, ethereal information.
7. Therefore, the 19th century, reductive, physical, scientific Paradigm of Materialism should be updated to include the knowledge emerging from 21st century, holistic, metaphysical Information Sciences. — Gnomon

:up: Yep, yep, yep. And there are plenty of references - Santiago school of cognition.

But most materialist philosophers find it difficult to imagine that something as ethereal as Mind Stuff could be the ultimate reality. :worry: — Gnomon

These tend to be older guys like ourselves. There is no understanding from this perspective. Not even a hint of an understanding. Not only is there no theory, but there is not even the vaguest conception of how one might arise. A thought dose not arise in the brain, but from all the system layers a brain depends upon - all the layers of the system have to be integrated for the brain to function and for the next thought to arise. As we look back along the causal chain we end up outside the complex biological system in a universal pocket of order with enformation creating molecules. That's what causes the next thought to arise.

From monism an explanation is possible. It may not be the ultimate explanation, but its a step in the right direction, I feel - in more ways then one! Panpschism is gaining momentum, with people like Tononi, Koch, Hoffman, etc, but it will be up to the millennial generation to really cement it into place. You and I will just beat our heads against a brick wall, but who knows we may displace a brick or two along the way. :grin:

What is wrong with - Enformationism posits that the fundamental substances of reality is not energy or matter but mind. — Pop

I'll take that under advisement. But now I'm thinking about adding another, even more controversial, conclusion or Coda. Something along the lines of :

A possible corollary to the Enformationism Thesis is that "everything happens for a reason". But the Reason for Being may not have anything to do with You as a singular sentient being. The rational basis of reality, and the logic of evolution, may instead serve the long-range intention of the anonymous First Cause - Creator - Programmer - Enformer.

Unfortunately nobody knows what that ultimate goal might be. Except that it seems to have something to do with Complexity & Consciousness. Yet, the element of Randomness, implies that some freedom from determinism is essential to this exercise in Enformation.

So, your personal role in the process of computing that Final Answer may be as an independent-minded improvisational role-player in the on-going story of Evolution toward a Universal Mind in space-time, as envisioned by Teilhard deChardin.

But, your guess is as good as mine. So I play my role, and construct my character, for my own personal reasons. And you are somewhat free to do likewise.

Still, too wordy. But I feel the need to justify each conjecture beyond the bare facts. Such speculation might just dig me in deeper over my head. But then, what's the point of philosophy if not to go beyond Ontology (being) into Epistemology (knowing)? :worry:

Panpschism is gaining momentum, with people like Tononi, Koch, Hoffman, etc, but it will be up to the millennial generation to really cement it into place. You and I will just beat our heads against a brick wall, but who knows we may displace a brick or two along the way. :grin: — Pop

Yes. I think a revival of the old Panpsychism worldview is a step in the right direction. But it is currently most popular in the form of mystical magical New Age religions. Apparently the notion that everything, including a grain of sand, is conscious makes them feel a part of something greater than themselves. However, I think it's more comforting to feel that humans are an important part of the whole. However, our self-importance is diminished somewhat by the knowledge that the higher animals are also sentient. So, homo sapiens seems to be merely one step in the stairway to heaven, not the "chosen people" with a reservation in the Eternal Bliss suite. :cool:

A possible corollary to the Enformationism Thesis is that "everything happens for a reason". But the Reason for Being may not have anything to do with You as a singular sentient being. The rational basis of reality, and the logic of evolution, may instead serve the long-range intention of the anonymous First Cause - Creator - Programmer - Enformer.

Unfortunately nobody knows what that ultimate goal might be. Except that it seems to have something to do with Complexity & Consciousness. Yet, the element of Randomness, implies that some freedom from determinism is essential to this exercise in Enformation.

So, your personal role in the process of computing that Final Answer may be as an independent-minded improvisational role-player in the on-going story of Evolution toward a Universal Mind in space-time, as envisioned by Teilhard deChardin.

But, your guess is as good as mine. So I play my role, and construct my character, for my own personal reasons. And you are somewhat free to do likewise. — Gnomon

This is more like it, in my opinion ( particularly the stuff highlighted in bold ). I am much more inclined to read something like this as you are unifying and integrating your knowledge and drawing some conclusion from it. The conclusion can never be complete, as consciousness is infinite, but it pushes the boundary of consciousness to the edge of knowledge and from there one can imagine what human consciousness might look like in a future time.

In art the edge of knowledge is the sweet spot. In stepping beyond it one becomes truly creative. Everything up until the edge is just a repetition of something somebody else has done. This seems less well understood in philosophy.

So, homo sapiens seems to be merely one step in the stairway to heaven, not the "chosen people" with a reservation in the Eternal Bliss suite. :cool: — Gnomon

I think, to be creative, whether in art or philosophy - such that one is producing truly original work is a form of heaven in itself. Don't you think?

This is more like it, in my opinion ( particularly the stuff highlighted in bold ).I am much more inclined to read something like this as you are unifying and integrating your knowledge and drawing some conclusion from it. — Pop

FWIW, I have added a pop-up on the last page of the Introduction to Enformationism blog post. It is a revised version of the Abstract post previously. It's more compact and less personal than this one. But it's not really an article. I may reserve the abstract for those who specifically request a brief summary, before they invest any time in some nobody's vanity blog. :cool:

Abstract pop-up : http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page82.html

Your blog is very interesting - a great variety of useful information. I'm sure many people like myself will appreciate it. You just never know with these blogs. I did a definition of art a while back which nobody liked, probably because I nailed it, but Google AI thinks its sexy - If you google ungrounded variable mental construct you'll see what I mean.

BTW your pop-up is not working for me - Chrome browser on windows.

BTW your pop-up is not working for me - Chrome browser on windows. — Pop

It works in Firefox and Edge, so I don't know what the problem is. Unlike an internet link, this page link doesn't change the place marker to a finger pointer. You just have to put the place marker over the text and click. I might try a "rollover" popup instead of a "click" to see if that will work in other browsers. The problem with that solution is the popup box disappears if you move the mouse. Anyway, here's the content of the popup ---


 Abstract of the Enformationism Thesis :
1. The Enformationism hypothesis aligns with the ancient, but still controversial, theory that the fundamental “substance” of reality is not sensible physical energy or tangible matter, but the abstract meta-physical contents of a cosmic mind, or what we might now call : a universal “information processor”. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/
2. Yet it concludes that those mysterious, metaphysical, mental building blocks of reality (bits & bytes) are no more mystical than the ordinary, mundane objects of thought (ideas) that we take for granted in our own personal neural information processor.  https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/. . . .xml
3. Axiom : Enformation (the power to enform) is real and primal. Hence, Mental concepts are categorically and hierarchically prior to material things. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/
4. Premise 1 : At the quantum level of reality matter is essentially reduced to mathematical information.
5. Premise 2 : The essence of mind and thought is Information, which consists of patterns and relationships between things.
6. Conclusion : Matter, Energy & Mind are evolved forms of abstract, ethereal information encoded in the Primal Singularity.
7. Therefore, the 19th century, reductive, physical, scientific Paradigm of Materialism should be updated to include the knowledge emerging from 21st century, holistic, meta-physical Information Sciences.

If you google ungrounded variable mental construct you'll see what I mean. — Pop

Ooooh! That's quite a technical philosophical concept. But your summation is on target :
“Art is an expression of human consciousness. Art work is information about the artist’s consciousness.”

Yes. Art is a form of communication. And some older definitions of "art" emphasized how it conveys the feeling of beauty. Yet a lot of modern art is not intended to display beauty, but the ugliness of reality. So, I think you nailed-it, that what is communicated is how the artist views the world. This reminds me of the epigram -- attributed to Kant, The Talmud, among others -- "we see the world, not as it is, but as we are" :smile:

Unlike an internet link, this page link doesn't change the place marker to a finger pointer. You just have to put the place marker over the text and click. — Gnomon

Yes thanks that worked. Still the text at the bottom of the pop up couldn't be read. The content seems spot on however. :up:

we see the world, not as it is, but as we are — Gnomon

We are - an evolving process of self organization, so this is spot on - we see the world in terms of our self organization, Talmud- circa 200CE :chin:

Another similar observation : “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?” — Hillel

Yes thanks that worked. Still the text at the bottom of the pop up couldn't be read. The content seems spot on however. — Pop

Just for the record, I have revised the Thesis Abstract popup indicator so that it changes when you hover over it, to indicate that a click will cause an action. It doesn't turn blue, like a hyperlink, it merely fades, like a Cheshire Cat. :joke:
http://bothandblog6.enformationism.info/page82.html

PS___In the Information-Consciousness-Reality book, I just came across a line, in his abstract of all chapters, that is relevant to your thesis : "Self-organization appears like a fundamental force guiding cosmic evolution". That's essentially what I call EnFormAction in my own thesis. He also has a chapter entitled : A Universe Built of Information , which is what the Enformationism thesis is all about.

If you are interested, there is a free PDF download available, and the Kindle version is Free on Amazon : https://www.amazon.com/Information-Consciousness-Reality-Understanding-Questions-Existence-Collection-ebook/dp/B07QLN9X14/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Information-Consciousness-Reality&link_code=qs&qid=1614303194&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-1&tag=mozilla-20

Thanks I'll check it out. The pop-up is working properly for me now.

Emotions have evolved into a complicated thing. I imagine that If one could devolve emotion, to their original state one would find a simple bias - to be one way, and not another. At their simplest, they seem like something reminiscent of a magnetic force, and this seems to be an essential component in the making of biological machine. — Pop

The earth’s core generates an electro magnetic force which passes through everything on the surface of the earth and extends for miles beyond the surface. This electro magnetic force protects the ozone layer from being stripped away by the solar wind, and it’s protective action is visible in the northern lights. Perhaps this electro magnetic force, passing through the grey matter in the skull, results in what we call consciousness, by the stimulation of neurones in the brain?

Reason seems like a very complicated thing to postulate.

The most common form of life are single celled organisms. If anything, reason could be considered a dangerous thing to have: you either react quickly, or you die.

The earth’s core generates an electro magnetic force which passes through everything on the surface of the earth and extends for miles beyond the surface. This electro magnetic force protects the ozone layer from being stripped away by the solar wind, and it’s protective action is visible in the northern lights. Perhaps this electro magnetic force, passing through the grey matter in the skull, results in what we call consciousness, by the stimulation of neurons in the brain? — Present awareness

Something like you suggest is a very distinct possibility, in my opinion. There seems to be a mechanism that drives integrity, or order from the word go, and this is necessary for life to evolve. Some would say that the entropic principle within a cell is enough to drive life, but whilst this drives greater molecular complexity, there is no compulsion for the molecular complexity to become ordered and integrated - quite the opposite.

A force, or multiplicity of forces, of some sort seems to drive integrity in the universe - in the pockets that are ordered, and life seems to evolve due to it. The simplest way to put it is that the universe is self organizing, and life evolved from this, and consciousness is a form of self organization. But I can only speculate as to the cause ( forces ) of self organization. The Earth's magnetic field would have to be in place for the present form of life to evolve, so it plays a role, but integrity is present everywhere in the universe. Why is there integrity everywhere in the universe? I think you would ultimately have to say because the universe is biased to self organize, and to the best of my ability to analyze it, a bias is an emotion.


From this perspective a universe biased to self organize is acting very similarly to human consciousness, as described by phenomenology - where emotions ( as a force ) drive integrity, whilst perception is a disintegrative force ( perception disrupts an integrated state ).

Sorry for the late reply about the "Turing patterns".
I did not post on that topic, because it seems like the topic starter might not want to continue on that topic.

My theory about energy waves is different then that of Turing patterns.
From my point of view everything you : see, hear or touch is energy.
A rock ( something you can touch or an object that has mass) is still just another energy that function on a different wavelength, then the wavelength of sound, light or magnetic.

That's why i think the human cells or any other living cells are just energy interactions + the information that resulted from those interactions.

This theory of consciousness badly needs updating but I just don't have the time at present. I'm glad I called consciousness an evolving process! :smile:

In systems and complexity theory, self organization begins with arbitrary fluctuations of energy. At least that is currently the deepest possible insight. What is brushed over is that these energetic fluctuations are in themselves self organizing ( they interact and integrate ). It seems they are self organizing from the outset? How would you explain their self organization? Tell me more please?

Energy on its own we know nothing about. But energy that has frequency or vibration is energy + information, in my understanding. A certain pattern of energetic frequency or vibration is symbolized in consciousness, perhaps by a neuron, but certainly by a concept, and then is related to other concepts or neurons - and that would be how consciousness occurs, as far as I can see. In this way, If we could strip away these anthropocentric concepts (symbols) all there would be left would be patterns of fluctuating and vibrating energy. Is this roughly what you mean?

From my point of view everything you : see, hear or touch is energy.
A rock ( something you can touch or an object that has mass) is still just another energy that function on a different wavelength, then the wavelength of sound, light or magnetic.

That's why i think the human cells or any other living cells are just energy interactions + the information that resulted from those interactions. — Adughep

:100: I think you are right! It leads to a string theory like paradigm. Not necessarily strings, but particles of energy in combination forming structure.

If we call them strings, then one string interacts with another string, and the interaction modulates the frequency of both strings such that a third, now combined and modulated string emerges. The resultant modulated string is symbolic of the initial interaction. That's how information is preserved. That’s how consciousness begins! Subsequently these symbols are again integrated through further interaction. That’s how self organization occurs! Ultimately this leads to a neural network type of situation where combination builds symbolic complexity, as material structure. Information is preserved in a creative emergent manner, and symbolized in the emergent form of the resulting strings.

** In such a paradigm, neurobiology is the process of converting energetic frequency and vibration to symbols ( pattern recognition ), and then relating the symbols. In the end, the symbols in combination create a big picture we call consciousness. Much like the pixels of a computer screen only in 3D.

Yes indeed, you wrote a very great description of the way energies mixed together to preserve information.And the relation with neurobiology.
:clap: :clap:

Also mixing multiple different energies for a lot of time ( thousands of years or more), they can transform and evolve into another type of energy which can keep a lot of more information then today.
You can say that is evolution as well.
Ex. when a very high magnet field produce electric current by itself.Or energies that can evolve and transform into another type of energy just by increasing their frequency.


Taking aside energies and thinking of "the need for sleep" of humans and animals.
Like what is the reason we sleep ? why you need to sleep ?
My answer to the above question is :
So we can keep the information we gather during the day.
So we wont overload with too much information, and destroy our organized cells.
Filing tired is a limit of the information that we can keep for that specific period of time, which then needs to be analyzed and stored by our cells during sleep.

The reason we age and get older can also have the same reason, as in time we take in too much information.
We might need another chemical structure beside "water" to be able to store more information and live longer.
That will be another complex and interesting discussion.
How much information is more then enough or how much information humans or living cells can take without affecting the current ordered structure ?
You can take "information" by colliding with a car, but that wont be pleasant for us or the living cells inside us.
It would be nice to have medical instruments to measure this for us, to see "the amount of information" we already stored and maybe how much "space" i have left to store the incoming information.Some instruments are already there, but since we dont see it as a hole(as information) we might neglect them.

Ex. when a very high magnet field produce electric current by itself.Or energies that can evolve and transform into another type of energy just by increasing their frequency. — Adughep

Grrr - :angry: Physics is not my strong point - I have a lot of catching up to do!

So we can keep the information we gather during the day.
So we wont overload with too much information, and destroy our organized cells. — Adughep

This sounds reasonable. I was thinking sleep allows new structure to be built around consolidated information, which becomes physical structure somehow, such that it has new pathways to grow. The way you characterize it would seem to work also.

We might need another chemical structure beside "water" to be able to store more information and live longer. — Adughep

Ok, I'm having another look at water memory and I have found this. Water memory is a very big deal. It would entail the recalibration of an awful lot of theory, so its no surprise it has met a lot of resistance. I'm open minded though, and I note a few people have found there is something to it, so will keep looking.

You can take "information" by colliding with a car, but that wont be pleasant for us or the living cells inside us. — Adughep

Yes, this would be chaos ( too much energy / information) - no chance for information to self organize. Order is necessary.
The Dictionary definition of order is: the arrangement or disposition of people or things in relation to each other according to a particular sequence, pattern, or method. So order is self organization. We recognize order by noticing a self organization occurring. And this can only occur in pockets of the universe that have the right energy states. In those states the energy starts ordering ( self organizing ).
The right information has to be present ( the right elements ) for the ordering to continue.

We might need another chemical structure beside "water" to be able to store more information and live longer.
That will be another complex and interesting discussion. — Adughep

Do you have some good references?

BTW, thanks for your information. I was thinking of energy as a substance and couldn't quite put it together, but upon thinking of it as particles ( wavicles ), due to your prompts, it just clicked. :up:

I think the energy is related to the spirit / soul we feel ourselves to be
— Pop

What about intelligence? Or mind? Where does that fit into the picture? Is it ‘a product of’ energy? I think not.
— @Wayfarer @Banno

If the current paradigm does not provide understanding, why support it? If things do no fit one way, I try a different way.There is no one reason that leads me to this way of thinking, but a number of reasons that converge to point to this. Unfortunately none of them would constitute an absolute logical proof, but I'll keep working on it. :smile: The below is an idea in principle that relates directly to your question. It requires an open mind.

1 Information and energy are fundamental

2. If information and energy are fundamental, then everything is made of information and energy.

3. If everything is made of energy and information, then so is consciousness.

Assuming information and energy is fundamental, then the most fundamental particle is a wavicle of sorts. It possesses energy and information in the form of frequency and amplitude. This wavicle interacts with another wavicle, and in the interaction the frequency and amplitude ( information ) of the two wavicles modulate to form a third wavicle. This third wavicle in its form of frequency and modulation symbolizes the interaction of the first two wavicles. The third wavicle is a symbol of the interaction of the two first wavicles. The information of the first two wavicles has been integrated and symbolized in the form of the third wavicle.

Information has been integrated to symbol.

This is what consciousness does, it integrates information to a symbol.

Consciousness integrates specifically this sort of information – information in the form of energetic frequency and vibration. Frequency and vibration in the form of light and sound hits the edge of a self. The self itself is fundamentally frequency and vibration, so two wavicles of sorts interact and modulate. The sensed frequency and vibrations are symbolized - pattern recognition style, where each pattern has its own symbol. The symbols are related and a big picture is created, similar to the pixels of a computer screen, only in 3D.

This fundamental interaction has the quality of consciousness – it integrates information to a symbol – there is no need for a consciousness to emerge, the information integrating function is already present. In time, It just evolves in complexity, and is able to integrate more and more information.

Information and energy are fundamental — Pop

The problem I see is that 'information' is not 'a simple'. The word 'simple' has particular implications in this context - it means 'irreducible', 'can't be explained in terms of anything else' (ref. So, for materialism, matter is simple, or rather, can be explained in terms of simple particles, namely the atom (meaning 'indivisible particle', therefore 'has no parts'.) .

But 'information' has different meanings in different contexts. There literally is no such thing as information simpliciter. Yes, all living things are configured according to the information encoded in DNA, but even saying that doesn't cast any light on where that information originated or even what it is, apart from its embodied form. (For an explanation of the use of the term in biology, see What is information?).

So I am dubious at the way 'information' has been siezed upon in the last couple of decades as an 'explanation' or 'fundamental substance' - because it's not a substance, in the philosophical sense (where 'substance' is the 'bearer of attributes'). What information do you have in mind, when you say 'information'? If you just wave your hands around and say, 'well, information, generally', I'm afraid it doesn't mean anything.

Saying 'mind' is fundamental is much nearer the mark in my view, but it has to be framed appropriately.