Presumably, all Christians believe in an immortal soul. The soul of the a fetus is safe, being immortal. Whereas the flesh has barely formed at all. The denigrated, maligned flesh is, in this case, hardly there. The body is only marginally human, and the brain, memory and personality, are marginal at best. So why not discard the flesh, since the soul is safe, and the flesh is so... weak? — hypericin

That's not Christian attitude - it's dualist. I imagine some gnostic sects might agree, but as I understand the Christian view, the soul and the body are inter-dependent. Besides, salvation is not guaranteed for the soul but in the Christian view is only possible through belief in Jesus Christ, so I suppose a Christian would argue that the infant is being deprived of that opportunity by being killed prior to birth.

Christians believe that to take an innocent life is immoral. In their minds, the conceptus (I'll use this word to describe everything inside the womb from conception to birth) has a soul and is therefore given the status of person. To say that it is okay to kill the conceptus in the womb because their soul will be safe is akin to saying that it is okay to kill an innocent person who follows Christ because their soul will be safe. Based on my experiences with the matter, I would venture to say that Christian ethics tends to avoid consequentialist style ethics in their justification and reasoning about killing.

There is a philosopher (Don Marquis) who does argue along the lines as listed above. The reason why it is wrong to kill a person is that we are denying them the life and experiences they would have experienced if they were not killed. By the same vein, to abort the conceptus is to deny the life and experiences that conceptus would have one day had. There are a number of problems with this position, so I do not know many who accept it.

Don Marquis is important to note though because he indicates the range of positions on abortion. I would say the consensus for a position on abortion is much stronger among people who identify as Christian than those who identify as nonreligious. The nonreligious have a wide range of thought on the permissibility of abortion. Generally, it comes down to either the conceptus not reaching the moral status necessary to override other moral concerns, the permissibility to kill in certain circumstances extended to abortion, or some combination of these two lines of thought.

There are differences of opinion about when a fetus is "ensouled". Some think from the moment of conception, some think later--perhaps at birth.

Some people are concerned about abortion for reasons not directly relating to the issue of personhood, ensoulment, etc.

Some people feel that a woman's alleged 'absolute right to decide about abortion' conflicts with the interests of the father. Some are concerned about women having rights at all over her own body. Some people think of pregnancy and birth as a deserved ball and chain for women who have engaged in premarital or extramarital sex. Some people think that all persons are sacred and that there can't be too many of us.

While some religious authorities disapprove of both contraception and/or abortion, "most Christians" make up their own minds about these issues (and others).

It's not as if it's not murder just because the body involved isn't fully formed.

(Which isn't my view re abortion, but that's the view.)

Like @Bitter Crank said, there is no certainty when is a fetus ensouled. Christians believe that a sex is something sacred, either physical and spiritual connection of partners, where the Holy spirit is present. Therefore right after impregnation a fetus have soul and so it is a valid human. This means that Christians believe that abortion = murder.

IMO this is the right point of view, because really there is no way to tell since when a fetus should be considered as a valid human..

I had sex in gay bath houses where the Holy Spirt was definitely present and active. It was... divine.

Ok.. Congrats?

"Congrats" or maybe, "Which bath houses were those?" would be an appropriate response. I'd tell you but they are closed. Sorry you missed out.

Therefore right after impregnation a fetus have soul and so it is a valid human. This means that Christians believe that abortion = murder. — Takerian

The tiny little problem with this argument is that neither believers nor heathens know anything about when, or if, a fetus is ensouled--or, for that matter what a soul is, what it does, whether it has experiences, whether it is eternal, where it was before conception, where it is after death, and so on.

Not only do we (believers and heathens) not know the answers to these questions, there is no divine or scientific source that tells us the answers. The only one who could have provided the information (Jesus) didn't happen to say anything about it. Had somebody asked him those questions, he probably would have said, "It's way above your pay grade."

Neither believers nor pagans need worry about these issues, because in neither case is it up to them to decide (when a fetus is ensouled) nor to do anything about it. God is, presumably, abundantly capable of taking care of these matters. It may be that babies are not ensouled until they are named, circumcised, or baptized. We just don't know, and we don't need to know.

Regarding murder... it isn't ensoulment that makes a killing murder. It is the deliberate action of one person acting on another resulting in death. If you think abortion is murder, or not, think what you want -- but the term "murder" doesn't depend on a soul.

The tiny little problem with this argument is that neither believers nor heathens know anything about when, or if, a fetus is ensouled — Bitter Crank

Once again: Christians believe a fetus is possessed by soul since an impregnation.

it isn't ensoulment that makes a killing murder. It is the deliberate action of one person acting on another resulting in death. — Bitter Crank

The question remains: Since when is a fetus a person?

"personhood" is a philosophical concept, but it is also a legal concept. Legal personhood begins whenever we say it does. Some jurisdictions would like to say it begins at conception, but this raises procedural issues. Is a 2 week old "person" eligible for benefits of some kind? Can someone sue on behalf of a 2 week old person? If the mother miscarries, should there be a police investigation, and possibly a trial to determine the possibility of murder? If a pregnant woman dies by gunfire, is the shooter guilty of more than one murder? (In some states the answer is 'yes'.)

What we generally say is "Personhood legally begins at birth, whether the birth is vaginal or caesarean." A live birth is indisputable. Fetuses are quite disputable.
\

The doctrine of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church on this is relatively simple. Human life is sacred from its beginning because, you may be surprised to learn, from its beginning it involves the creative action of God. It isn't merely a man and a woman, sperm and egg, that are involved in conception; God is in on it too, somehow. Thus, we're creatures of God from the get-go and properly God is the Lord of our lives. Nobody but God may end the lives of his creatures except, of course, in certain defined circumstances in accordance with God's law. Q.E.D.

The issue here is, and I'm sure you realize it, that one can claim that whatever the ultimate outcome, it is the will of God. This those on both sides of an issue can claim that outcomes are the will God.This has always been the thorn in the side of those whose beliefs are of a omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God that is external to all things. As a matter of course, materialistic determinists have exactly the same problem but in their case the invisible hand are the laws of physics.

The arguments have to do with life, not souls per se. If they were solely to do with the latter, then positions like Aquinas's, who believed ensoulment happens well after conception, would be less useful in defending an anti-abortion stance.

Also, there are some atheists who are opposed to abortion. They are a minority, but they exist all the same.

Christians believe that a sex is something sacred, either physical and spiritual connection of partners — Takerian

Speak for yourself. I've read enough of the New Testament, the Church Fathers, and countless Christian mystics, ascetics, and theologians to know that this is not at all normative.

Christians believe that a sex is something sacred, either physical and spiritual connection of partners — Takerian

I'm one of them! O:)

You want a medal?

You want a medal? — Thorongil

I would be honored if I receive one from the great Thorongil 8-)

Your reward will be a post in the space thread.

Your reward will be a post in the space thread. — Thorongil

:D excellent!

Don't be personal. I like to operate with facts.

the Holy Scriptures clearly testify to a reverence for the life of the mother and the life of her unborn child as both being equal in value,

-WELS

Don't be personal. I like to operate with facts. — Takerian

Sure you do....

As a, 'By the way’ - I’ve always been rather curious myself as to whether the blatant incongruity of both the attitudes of Left and Right towards 'Abortion and Capital punishment' - incongruous in that a perverse perception of each idea as being morally the reciprocal of the other is typical in both ideologies - might in fact be illustrative of something profound occurring concerning the irrational interplay between the psychology and the intellect?

Wonder how you delete a post btw - assuming you wanted to delete it in the first place of course?!

"Thou shalt not kill" - the 6th Commandment.

Ask anyone if they would have lived their life if their mother had an abortion instead of giving birth ro them. The anwser would of course be "No". Therefore one can argue that abortion is the snuffing out of a human life. Isn't the cold-blooded, premeditated snuffing out of a human life murder?

Ask anyone if they would have lived their life if their mother had an abortion instead of giving birth ro them. The anwser would of course be "No". Therefore one can argue that abortion is the snuffing out of a human life. Isn't the cold-blooded, premeditated snuffing out of a human life murder? — Dredge

There seems a non-sequitur here. I will condense your hypothetical question and answer ("No") into one statement, which you believe implies the subsequent statement:

(1) A given person P could not have been born (a necessary condition for "living one's life") had their mother had an abortion, therefore abortion is the snuffing out of a human life.

However, the substance of the conclusion also follows (mutatis mutandis) if, say, celibacy is substituted for "abortion" in the single premise provided here:

(2) A given person P could not have been born (a necessary condition for "living one's life") had their mother been celibate, therefore celibacy is the snuffing out of a human life.

I think that the conclusion in (2) quite obviously does not follow (no reasonable person can claim - I hope! - that celibacy equates with murder), and yet the logical force (or lack thereof) which attaches to (1) should also attach to (2), given that we've only substituted the relevant terms.

Well, killing the baby amounts to murder which I hope is forbidden in Christianity.

Atheists don't think abortion amounts to murder.

Well, killing the baby amounts to murder which I hope is forbidden in Christianity.

Atheists don't think abortion amounts to murder. — TheMadFool

You do realize that there are some pro-choice Christians, correct?

You do realize that there are some pro-choice Christians, correct? — Arkady

What a flimsy retort, >:O

Edit: Well, so is this claim -

Atheists don't think abortion amounts to murder. — TheMadFool

Man, why'd we revive this thread only to write a bunch of stupid? :(

Man, why'd we revive this thread only to write a bunch of stupid? — Heister Eggcart

As your post has arguably contributed less to this thread than any recent comment, perhaps you are the primary contributor to the problem which is the subject of your question.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'll let you guys get back to your hamfisting, then (Y)