We can survey people to get a data — Soylent
I would guess a biological/evolutionary theory of love would make the mother-child relationship primary and all other "loving relationships" are a by-product of the mother-child attachment. We could probably extrapolate from the mother-child relationship to your theory insofar as the closer the roles of the male and female approach the mother-child relationship (high-status woman, low-status man), the stronger the love claim. — Soylent
I liked the idea of the socially unsanctioned relationship. Liked it better that there wasn't official approval. — Bitter Crank
When exactly did relationships between men and women, the care for each other, the ongoing desire to be with each other, ever run on the basis of such exaggerated displays of affection? Never. — TheWillowOfDarkness
Relationships themselves are run on a much more mundane sort of care, one which is not about how someone its the greatest treasure, but rather one which sees the well-being of other people as important. — TheWillowOfDarkness
Do you really think females have no ability to care for someone that they also want a sexual relationship with? In other words, do you think that females are not capable of romantic love? Or do you believe that females do have strong feelings of care and sexual relationship, but they simply don't display it? — schopenhauer1
Whereas there are structural reasons that men love women; they love women because of the social roles allotted to them. In other words, women only love when they are loving people; but men are often led to love because that is what is required of them as men. — The Great Whatever
That is if you accept my definition of romantic love being care + sexual attraction and/or relationship. — schopenhauer1
Sure. When I say something is structural, I mean it happens in virtue of some social category that a person belongs to. So, for example, if I'm tall, that's a social structural advantage. That is, certain advantages will accrue to me because I am tall. I may still get shit on, in the way a short person does, but in most causes, not because of my height, but for independent idiosyncratic reasons. Being short is a structural disadvantage: if you are short, you will make less money, people will take you less seriously, and so on, because you are short: for that very reason. — The Great Whatever
So my claim is that men love women because they are men and women are women (for structural reasons). The reverse is not true. If a woman loves a man, it is because of her personal traits independent of her gender. In other words, love from women directed towards men is always in spite of these structural biases, not because of them. — The Great Whatever
I think this doesn't get quite to the heart of love, which involves far dirtier and more mundane things, like the transfer of money, the rearing of children, and various forms of socially accepted obedience (accepting, in the case of men, that your female partner has a serious say in who your friends are, what you wear, and so on). — The Great Whatever
Do you think this is due to biological or cultural reasons? — schopenhauer1
In other words, can't the mundane things be more of a byproduct of love (i.e. living together in the same space, being legally bound by a marriage, etc.). — schopenhauer1
Also, what is your answer to the question from the previous post: If this is the case are you saying that most women do not necessarily care about their partner, but accept them being around because they get the benefits of care that men display? — schopenhauer1
The problem is this all social smoke and mirrors — TheWillowOfDarkness
Yes. By and large, I think women merely put up with men and do not really care for them. — The Great Whatever
The world is all smoke and mirrors. If you want to understand the world, you have to understand that. — The Great Whatever
We're all disciples of Schopenhauer here, aren't we? Culture is biology, it's all will. — The Great Whatever
No. If you like, there is a demand these arrangements be met, and love is a vehicle through which this gets done, or these things are actually part of love to begin with. — The Great Whatever
So do you think that women care only enough for there to be offspring to take care of? Similarly, do you think that men care more intensely so that the situation for offspring can occur in the first place? — schopenhauer1
Maybe, but they don't experience it that way in their individual psychology. Men experience it as love for the women, women as love for their children. (I also think that structurally, men have no reason to care for children, and do not as much as women do; the fact that men don't much care for kids is part of why love needs to entrap them into a situation that doesn't benefit them). That is the function each unwittingly performs, though, yes.
And of course the ultimate goal of breeding is to breed more suffering. — The Great Whatever
Couldn't this be studied in such a way to verify this behavior scientifically? It makes sense in a theoretical way, but this seems like something that can be verified by testing. Of course, even then, it would have to be multiple testing, across cultures, probably over many generations. That would have to be a very extensive research project. — schopenhauer1
Yes. By and large, I think women merely put up with men and do not really care for them. — The Great Whatever
The world is all smoke and mirrors. If you want to understand the world, you have to understand that. — The Great Whatever
I didn't think it was controversial that men are less attached to their children than women, on whatever metric you care to use. Or am I wrong about that? — The Great Whatever
So, though there might be a tendency for bad fathers, this is not the ideal choice for females who want to see their offspring thrive. — schopenhauer1
But see, this just shows you the very theoretical nature of evolutionary psychology. A lot of it is "just so" theories and hard to pin down what is an adaptation, or what is an "idiosyncrasy" as you might call it. — schopenhauer1
Right, this is why the 'beta male' or provider needs love to entice him. Women are 'mixed maters.' One class of men fathers the children, and another class raises them (the ones that love the women). — The Great Whatever
I don't really care about the evolutionary history, though, I care about the synchronic function of these social roles, which you can observe happening right now. — The Great Whatever
But not all "good fathers" are simply fathering someone else's child. — schopenhauer1
I don't know though. Don't some (many perhaps) women cry and show emotions of pain when they lose a significant other via breakup, death, or long time away? This seems to show care. — schopenhauer1
Certainly, some women will cheat (just like some men), and maybe even desire (unconsciously) to sleep with some more alpha dude.. — schopenhauer1
I'm willing to bet many or most people in a committed relationship are also willing to weigh that against the odds of losing out on someone they know they get along with — schopenhauer1
Additionally, the longer the couple stay together, the more they know about each other adding to the sense of care, creating a kind of feedback loop for care. The more you know, the more nuances there are to care about in the significant other. This again, creates a relationship with a high capital (someone who knows the nuances), that is difficult to build again and would be a loss of time, energy, and interpersonal knowledge on possibility of something that (though might seem shiny, "alpha", attractive, etc.) might be worse off or not work out. — schopenhauer1
Sexual attraction just isn't required for marriage, and most men aren't that great looking. Sexually, men seem to like women more than women seem to like men. — The Great Whatever
Everyone cries when they lose something that causes them pain at its loss. But you can't tell from the crying whether it's because you've lost a person or an asset. — The Great Whatever
I don't think it's unconscious. People don't want to have sex with ugly, unfit, etc. people, that's just a fact. Lots of marriages are sexless, usually as a result of the woman's lack of interest, not the man's. Sexual attraction just isn't required for marriage, and most men aren't that great looking. Sexually, men seem to like women more than women seem to like men. — The Great Whatever
Notice that that doesn't show care for the person, though, any more than weighing the consequences of breaking the law shows care for the law. — The Great Whatever
Well, it works the other way too. Familiarity breeds contempt. — The Great Whatever
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