As I understand the recent news cycle as it pertains to Trump and Biden:

As told from the right, Burisma is a Ukrainian gas and oil producer that was being subjected to an anti-corruption investigation by Ukrainian prosecutor Shokin when he was fired at the behest of then VP Joe Biden, who bragged that the firing occurred as the result of his withholding of $1b in aid from the Ukraine. Joe's son Hunter, after the firing, joined the board of Burisma, and even though he had no expertise for that position, earned over $80k per month while there.

Joe denied having any knowledge of Hunter's interactions with Burisma or in using his personal influence over anything having to do with Burisma. Some recently revealed emails found on Hunter's alleged computer by a computer repair person indicate direct involvement between Joe and Burisma. Those emails were provided to Trump's personal lawyer, Giuliani , who then shared it with the Washington Post, who then published this story.

The left's position is that Burisma was corrupt, that Obama had tried to stop the corruption, that Shokin refused to investigate Burisma, that Shokin himself was corrupt, and that Biden's firing of Shokin was at the request of Obama and the EU for proper purposes. They agree Hunter probably shouldn't have sat on Burisma's board, but it occurred after the Burisma investigation was dormant and it was without Joe's knowledge. They also say the leaked computer information might be a Russian set up.

Twitter and Facebook have blocked any reference to the Washington Post story, effectively censoring it on their platforms. This story doesn't appear on CNN or MSNBC and Biden refuses to respond to it.

That's why I'm not voting for Biden. Censorship, evasion, and lack of transparency. So, sure, I understand the reasons provided why you shouldn't vote for Trump, but why not the reasons for not voting for Biden? His son earns $80k per month from a known corrupt entity that was being investigated by someone who his father fired? Maybe it is all innocent (???), but shouldn't it get a little more play time that it has, and are we not at all concerned that the media has taken a side on this?

That's why I'm not voting for Biden. Censorship, evasion, and lack of transparency. So, sure, I understand the reasons provided why you shouldn't vote for Trump, but why not the reasons for not voting for Biden? His son earns $80k per month from a known corrupt entity that was being investigated by someone who his father fired? Maybe it is all innocent (???), but shouldn't it get a little more play time that it has, and are we not at all concerned that the media has taken a side on this? — Hanover

Biden isn't responsible for Twitter and Facebook blocking posts or for the media not talking about it.

Also, Republican Inquiry Finds No Evidence of Wrongdoing by Biden

WASHINGTON — An election-year investigation by Senate Republicans into corruption allegations against Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter, involving Ukraine found no evidence of improper influence or wrongdoing by the former vice president, closing out an inquiry its leaders had hoped would tarnish the Democratic presidential nominee.

The investigation found that Hunter Biden had “cashed in” on his father’s name to close lucrative business deals around the world. It also concluded that his work for Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company then mired in a corruption scandal, while the former vice president was directing American policy toward Kyiv had given the appearance of a conflict of interest and alarmed some State Department officials.

But an 87-page report summing up the findings, released jointly on Wednesday by the Senate Homeland Security and Finance Committees, contained no evidence that the elder Mr. Biden improperly manipulated American policy toward Ukraine or committed any other misdeed. In fact, investigators heard witness testimony that rebutted those charges.

Maybe they can get Barr to do something about it. :meh:

That's why I'm not voting for Biden. — Hanover

Most of the world's people aren't voting, because they can't. But that is not the same thing as an eligible voter not voting. That is a vote - not voting is a vote.

Participating in an election as a voter is arguably a duty. As such, like military duty or jury duty, it puts us who participate into a different world for a while. And it is incumbent on the participant to come to terms with those differences so that he or she can perform their duty. And if it all isn't quite what you're used to at home or how you would like it to be, just suck it up and get over yourself.

If you don't vote in this election (assuming you can) then you deserve what you get and forfeit any decent claim to complain. And the revilement of those who do vote. It's that simple. If you refuse to pull your oar, then why should not you be thrown overboard?

And I am certain you would make the same argument. The question, then, is why is someone else making it for you?

I do not necessarily agree with the left/right distinction. There are some principled lefties who have been critical of the Biden/Ukraine saga, and righties who have called it Russian disinfo.

Many Bernie bros and former Obama-voters have flipped to Trump, many vocal conservatives have flipped to Biden. I think there are new divides at work here.

Your concerns about Biden are dead on. Hunter Biden is the product of affluence and power par excellence. While Biden’s crime bills led to mass incarceration, his crackhead son has avoided troubles. As the recent emails make clear, Hunter and his partners profited off the Biden, at the very least. Biden is possibly compromised, a national security threat.

(Just a small correction: the outlet that reported on the emails was the New York Post, the paper of Hamilton.)

Maybe it is all innocent (???), but shouldn't it get a little more play time that it has, and are we not at all concerned that the media has taken a side on this? — Hanover

Right now, people are too concerned with the pandemic and the economy crashing that they don't give a damn about what Hunter Biden did in another country. I don't blame them, but that is just how it is. It should be a concern for people that the media is censoring stories that they don't approve of, but many of them don't think that far ahead and in fact some of them are even cheering the move so much as they are aware of it. It's setting a bad precedent but that's how it usually starts, like the Terrorist Surveillance Program that was started in the wake of 9/11.

That's why I'm not voting for Biden. — Hanover

While I agree with the concerns, on the assumption of various accusations somewhat cancelling each other out (lacking the ability to continue to follow up indefinitely on every meme or report that gets out there), I've rather been thinking of the vote as 1) a vote for Harris-Biden versus Pence-Trump, especially with the two dudes aging, 2) a vote for Harris or Pence supposing their age increases the probability of their already apparent incoherence and ineffectiveness, 3) a vote for the ideas and backing of either supposing the ever-present stooge factor (and keeping in mind these are often the same forces), 4) a vote for the more everyday base of which they seem to represent - however ridiculously or imperfectly or even grotesquely - and 5) as 180 put it above, thinking of the vote as well as a "referendum on the incumbent."


With all of these in mind, supposing a degree of mutual cancellation, and not really thinking of the vote as an endorsement of either individual other than nominally, personally my vote goes to a Harris Administration.

That's why I'm not voting for Biden. Censorship, evasion, and lack of transparency. So, sure, I understand the reasons provided why you shouldn't vote for Trump, but why not the reasons for not voting for Biden? — Hanover

Of all the reasons for not voting Biden (his actual voting history, his policies etc.) you choose some questionable story about how Biden was maybe somehow involved in getting his son some capitalist welfare payments (also known as board positions)? That seems very strange.

His son earns $80k per month from a known corrupt entity that was being investigated by someone who his father fired? Maybe it is all innocent (???), but shouldn't it get a little more play time that it has, and are we not at all concerned that the media has taken a side on this? — Hanover

You mean apart from all the other times when the media has taken sides? What's your concern, that US media might be getting increasingly partisan? Because if so I have bad news for you...

I don't know; I don't think it should matter. As soon as politics revolves around personalities and individuals, it's over. Any system that could lead to a Trump being installed there, and a Biden being the alternative, is rotten to the core. The cult of personality that follows presidents - any president - is toxic in and of itself. A basic rule of thumb for treating anyone with any sort of power is with suspicion and contempt, unless they prove, consistently, otherwise. Practically every US president in living memory has been a sack of shit. I have every expectation that every other one will be as well. — StreetlightX

I don't know; I don't think it should matter. As soon as politics revolves around personalities and individuals, it's over. Any system that could lead to a Trump being installed there, and a Biden being the alternative, is rotten to the core. The cult of personality that follows presidents - any president - is toxic in and of itself. A basic rule of thumb for treating anyone with any sort of power is with suspicion and contempt, unless they prove, consistently, otherwise. Practically every US president in living memory has been a sack of shit. I have every expectation that every other one will be as well. — StreetlightX

I don't know; I don't think it should matter. As soon as politics revolves around personalities and individuals, it's over. Any system that could lead to a Trump being installed there, and a Biden being the alternative, is rotten to the core. The cult of personality that follows presidents - any president - is toxic in and of itself. A basic rule of thumb for treating anyone with any sort of power is with suspicion and contempt, unless they prove, consistently, otherwise. Practically every US president in living memory has been a sack of shit. I have every expectation that every other one will be as well. — StreetlightX

This deserves to be triple quoted! And read thrice!

Biden isn't responsible for Twitter and Facebook blocking posts or for the media not talking about it. — Michael

Why they're his shill seems problematic. Your position is that he's just the lucky beneficiary of a cover up. Seems unlikely. In any event, I don't want a politician that is handled with kid gloves.

WASHINGTON — An election-year investigation by Senate Republicans into corruption allegations against Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter, involving Ukraine found no evidence of improper influence or wrongdoing by the former vice president, closing out an inquiry its leaders had hoped would tarnish the Democratic presidential nominee.

This was obviously prior to the recent leak from Hunter's computer, but it begs the question of why no other news source has picked it up and others are actively blocking its discussion.

If you don't vote in this election (assuming you can) then you deserve what you get and forfeit any decent claim to complain. And the revilement of those who do vote. It's that simple. If you refuse to pull your oar, then why should not you be thrown overboard? — tim wood

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say I wasn't voting in this election.

THIS ELECTION IS A REFERENDUM ON THE INCUMBENT. FULL STOP. — 180 Proof

My takeaway from the exchange in this thread is that the left really cannot help but fracture itself with ideological arguments. — Echarmion

Neither is the right, but they seem to do a better job of putting aside differences to access the power of unity. — frank

Voting for Biden is such an obvious decision, it's something the Left (or what I call the Left, the activists who are in tune with the reality of the ground) should talk about for 10 minutes and then shut the hell up and spend the rest of the year on other politics (unless you live in a swing state and want to increase turn out or something). — Saphsin

As soon as politics revolves around personalities and individuals, it's over. — StreetlightX

And Biden? Sure, vote for him. It would be a deeply shameful act — StreetlightX

personally my vote goes to a Harris Administration. — Kevin

All of this makes sense enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vsrm1J-QzQ

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say I wasn't voting in this election. — Hanover

So third party then? If not then the reasoning in your previous post doesn't make any sense to me.

Why they're his shill seems problematic. Your position is that he's just the lucky beneficiary of a cover up. Seems unlikely. In any event, I don't want a politician that is handled with kid gloves. — Hanover

Seems strange to not vote for someone because third parties choose not to talk about some possible scandal.

This was obviously prior to the recent leak from Hunter's computer, but it begs the question of why no other news source has picked it up and others are actively blocking its discussion. — Hanover

Probably because they feel it lacks credibility. Fox News turned it down and even the New York Post had trouble getting their reporters to agree to be the byline.

(Just a small correction: the outlet that reported on the emails was the New York Post, the paper of Hamilton.) — NOS4A2

Oh wow, the paper of Hamilton. Must be reliable reporting then!

Me and @Hanover are voting ANTIFA. So, fuck all y'all.

Almost as if "the left" isn't a single ideology.
— Michael

Neither is the right, but they seem to do a better job of putting aside differences to access the power of unity. — frank

There are more workers than bosses. The bosses have property, money power and influence in abundance, but lack the numbers. Thus 'divide and rule' has to be the tactic. This takes many forms, manipulation through the media, infiltration of left organisations, bribery of certain segments, fomenting of conflicts of all kinds racial, religious, and so on. There is no solidarity on the right, but a common interest in weakening the left. And of course everybody knows it is far easier to make a little money from a lot of poor people than the same amount from a few rich people. The solidarity of the left is the only enemy of the right.

Makes sense.

Chomsky's thoughts on LEV back in 2016 (thought some here might find interesting):

1) Voting should not be viewed as a form of personal self-expression or moral judgement directed in retaliation towards major party candidates who fail to reflect our values, or of a corrupt system designed to limit choices to those acceptable to corporate elites.

2) The exclusive consequence of the act of voting in 2016 will be (if in a contested “swing state”) to marginally increase or decrease the chance of one of the major party candidates winning.

3) One of these candidates, Trump, denies the existence of global warming, calls for increasing use of fossil fuels, dismantling of environmental regulations and refuses assistance to India and other developing nations as called for in the Paris agreement, the combination of which could, in four years, take us to a catastrophic tipping point. Trump has also pledged to deport 11 million Mexican immigrants, offered to provide for the defense of supporters who have assaulted African American protestors at his rallies, stated his “openness to using nuclear weapons”, supports a ban on Muslims entering the U.S. and regards “the police in this country as absolutely mistreated and misunderstood” while having “done an unbelievable job of keeping law and order.” Trump has also pledged to increase military spending while cutting taxes on the rich, hence shredding what remains of the social welfare “safety net” despite pretenses.

4) The suffering which these and other similarly extremist policies and attitudes will impose on marginalized and already oppressed populations has a high probability of being significantly greater than that which will result from a Clinton presidency.

5) 4) should constitute sufficient basis to voting for Clinton where a vote is potentially consequential-namely, in a contested, “swing” state.

6) However, the left should also recognize that, should Trump win based on its failure to support Clinton, it will repeatedly face the accusation (based in fact), that it lacks concern for those sure to be most victimized by a Trump administration.

7) Often this charge will emanate from establishment operatives who will use it as a bad faith justification for defeating challenges to corporate hegemony either in the Democratic Party or outside of it. They will ensure that it will be widely circulated in mainstream media channels with the result that many of those who would otherwise be sympathetic to a left challenge will find it a convincing reason to maintain their ties with the political establishment rather than breaking with it, as they must.

8) Conclusion: by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve. — Chomsky

There's a "preamble" I didn't copy/paste:
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/

Thanks for reposting that. Chomsky as usual is spot on.

I wish I was as clear and articulate as that 90+ year old man.

This time around, he's been saying that even in a "safe" state, one should vote Biden -- just to run up the score. It's the first time I've ever heard Chomsky say this.

Some states allocate electors based on the national popular vote. So yes, if you want Biden, vote Biden.

:brow:

And Biden? Sure, vote for him. It would be a deeply shameful act, but no less shameful than than being forced to do something terrible while being hostage. — StreetlightX

If you feel shameful for voting, you’re putting waaaay too much emotional and symbolic significance into that one act. Practically contradictory with simultaneously saying voting has no impact. Anyways, real politics is about making actions that make a difference on human lives who feel the impact between different policies (that includes me and my unemployment benefits by the way so fuck anyone can’t read the news and thinks it doesn’t, and it’s incomparably worse for many others), it’s not about your personal pride, so using the word shame shouldn’t even arise.

Reasons for voting Biden

1. Because Biden is obviously less bad. As horrible as he and the Democrats are, it’s pretty clear that they both vote along with the Republicans, but also often vote against terrible Republican policies. The difference between the policies of Democrats and Republicans (both small and large) will make a difference to hundreds of millions of lives. (if you add global warming, even more long term)

2. As bad as the Democrats are, much of their base is far more progressive than the politicians are. So activists have the space to organize the public and put pressure on politicians to implement programs. There is no such opportunity with the Republicans, both the voters and the politicians are hopeless. It’ll be another waste of 4 years of barely defending against an onslaught of right wing policy after right wing policy.

3. Trump will pack the Supreme Court.

4. It's much easier to challenge the 2 party system if the Democrats are in popular. If we show the public that centrists won't solve their problems they'll turn more left leaning. Bernie got popular after the discontent from Obama. When the Republicans are in power however, the Democratic base is far more prone to focus on being anti-Republican. Voter surveys showed that in the Democratic Primaries, the number one reason many voters opted for Biden was because they were concerned that he had a better chance of defeating Trump (sure that was complete false propaganda, but the Left doesn't control corporate media)

You minimize damage where you can, and shoot for our goals when you can, depending on the current opportunities. Taking one day to vote to put the less Right-Wing politician in power is easy, while the rest of the year can be organizing against the government and corporations.

Trump in power is a regression, he rolled back many progressive policies and corporate regulations, while implementing new right-wing policies. Not only does that hurt millions of people, but the Left is wasting time defending against them instead of pushing their own programs. It is obvious it's preferable to the Democrats to be in power, because they pass less Right-Wing policies, and there is a Democratic public base for the Left to organize to push our own programs. The more Right-Wing policies there are, the more time it takes to combat them. The Left has not implemented anything in the past 4 years. For all those who talk against electoral politics (while also constantly bitching about it more than I would), they can never use their imagination to understand the balance of forces, popular forces from below and the elites they’re struggling with. Maybe it’s because they don’t actually talk to American activists.

That Trump came into power in part due neoliberal policies that the Democrats share responsibility for is not logically inconsistent with this. And the Left is not as weak as it was just a decade or two ago, it has the capability to grow and organize the public, and push its demands. But that will not happen with Trump in power. With Bernie, there was a good chance of success. With Biden, the hurdles are much higher, but there’s at least a small crack of opportunity. With Trump, he’s just going to put more kids in concentration camps.

When discussing strategic decisions, even more so for ones that can easily be done, it's all about maximizing positives and minimizing negatives. With the available options in this particular choice (what you do on that one day, not what you do for the rest of the 4 years) under which circumstances can the Left build more of an advantage and in which less people get less tortured and killed. Trying to give a lecture about both parties having a bad record on neoliberalism and imperialism isn't answering the question.

If you really thought voting had zero effect on the distribution of political power either way (a ludicrous position in consideration of very clear evidence, but for argument's sake), you would actually shut up about it and focus on movement building instead of worrying about what people do on election day.

And if your politics was actually based on concerns of human lives, you would break things down and ask certain questions yourself, what is going to happen to person X (child in concentration camp, women who seek abortion, people in areas vulnerable to climate change, people in Iran or Cuba who suffer from Trump sanctions) what is my decision going to have on their lives. What would “they” want me to do. That's the definition of solidarity.

Seems strange to not vote for someone because third parties choose not to talk about some possible scandal. — Michael

Actually the first party refuses to talk about it. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-biden-response-hunter-biden-emails-business-dealings

From that article it says:

Biden, over the weekend, was asked about the Post report by a CBS News reporter, to which he replied: “I have no response.”

It's "another smear campaign," he said.

What else is there to say? If that's enough a reason to not vote for him (given my previous clarifications that Biden isn't responsible for what the media does or doesn't do, that the Senate found the Ukraine conspiracy to be unfounded, and that the story in the New York Post seems to be lacking credibility even to themselves and Fox News) then I think you're just looking for an excuse to not vote for him, rather than admit to whatever your real reason is.

If you feel shameful for voting, you’re putting waaaay too much emotional and symbolic significance into that one act. Practically contradictory with simultaneously saying voting has no impact. Anyways, real politics is about making actions that make a difference on human lives who feel the impact between different policies (that includes me and my unemployment benefits by the way so fuck anyone can’t read the news and thinks it doesn’t, and it’s incomparably worse for many others), it’s not about your personal pride, so using the word shame shouldn’t even arise. — Saphsin

To vote for someone like Trump or Biden is to vouch for them. And there are few acts more self degrading than giving your approval and your voice to a sack of shit like those two. Anybody with the smallest sliver of self respect would and should cringe with personal shame any time they even think about voting for a sack-of-shit.

Simple fact: the political machine is FUBAR, and we have a thick skulled populous that is too dense to understand that an irreparably broken machine will never work, but they keep trying to make it work. How retarded!

"To vote for someone like Trump or Biden is to vouch for them."

Yeah if you put that much emotional and symbolic attachment to the act of pushing a button at the voting booth (or by mail), which I find quite bizarre and pathetic really.

To vote for someone like Trump or Biden is to vouch for them. — Merkwurdichliebe

It's just to prefer one or the other as President.

I voted for a Labour MP, not because I supported him, but because I didn't want his Conservative opponent to win (and these were the only likely winners).

Voting can be nothing more than a pragmatic choice.