It does not follow that white lives don't matter.

AGAIN: the black gang murdered a guy around the corner, and they were shooting at me, and all the dozens of black people I asked just looked at me when I told them what I happened like I had just offered them an ice cream cone and changed the subject.

It still does not follow that white lives don't matter.

are you black too by any chance? because I cant think of another explanation for your comment.

Well, I'm not 'mercan. Odd, it seems, that you think my colour makes a difference to the logic of your post.

Because thats a slightly less insulting comment like the ones I get from black people on facebook. Of course my own life does matter to me, but as Im American perhaps I dont count as a white person to you or something.

What the fuck?

↪ernestm What the fuck? — Banno

Exactly.

Murican 'white grievance' déjà vu:

https://youtu.be/bhSs6bnAU1o :smirk:

First of, did you talk to your neighbours? How do you know they knew who were in the gang?

No; first off, what in ernestm's story might not have happened had ernestm been black? What was it about ernestm being white that was pivotal?

It's a shit story. Couldn't ernestm's black neighbours tell of much the same experiences? Were only the white people exposed to this violence?

Sounds kinda shady to be honest. Every incident you described you actually witnessed?

Why would you leave for 18 months when you could just come back the next day and either defend yourself from any hostile home invaders or call the police and have them arrested on the spot? With drugs to boot.

I'm not saying this stuff doesn't happen just.. idk.

The pet aspect is kind of messed up. Does sound like gang activity/intimidation/harrassment which those involved should be arrested as they're only decreasing property values and encouraging divestment which only hurts the people living there and contributes to keeping everyone down.

You're drinking right now aren't you? :)

...call the police... — Outlander

Yeah, that'll work.

If this story is true, I genuinely sympathize with you, but regardless your personal experience is largely irrelevant. You can’t take your experience of interactions with a handful of people of one race and generalize that onto all people of that race, or characterize the viewpoint or perspective of those particular individuals as the same viewpoint or perspective of all black people. You should instead just consider yourself unfortunate to have had these encounters, but refuse to allow yourself to let these encounters define all black people. Every race is diverse. It’s just by chance that you found yourself among some of the worst representatives.

Isn’t responding to complaints about someone being black in front of a white person’s house supposed to be one of the few things about the police system that does “work”?

I wouldn't be surprised if personal experience plays a bigger role in making someone a racist than we might at first realize. Bad experiences with another group can really color someone's perspective and I don't know how many people are truly immune from this. Maybe after the first bad experience we might reason "oh well that's only one bad apple" but after two or three you could start to think "well my people would never behave this way!" and once that thought starts creeping in you're already over the hill.

When I share this on Facebook, I am told I am a 'privielged white sh*t who is exactly causing the problem.' — ernestm

I don’t know Facebook that well but don’t you still have to accept ‘friend’ requests? Or maybe you can’t read a room so good?

Yep.

If this story is true... — Pinprick

We've no reason to doubt the story.

Rather, does the desired conclusion - given in the title - follows from the story?

No. The events might have taken place in a poor white neighbourhood.

Was there animosity towards ernestm from the perpetrators because of his skin? Probably. Would you expect the disenfranchised not to react negatively towards those around them?

I’m sorry to hear about your experience. I think it’s tragic, and you are undoubtably a victim of racism - but not only in the way you imagine. Among the most pernicious effects of racism is the way its effects bleed out and spill beyond its immediate targets, hurting everyone and everything involved. Racism is a cancer, and a society afflicted by its blight is worse off as a whole. Everything and everyone gets dragged down in its wake. It’s like a black hole. And it sucks everything in, including and maybe especially people like yourself.

Any community systematically deprived of opportunity and paths out, for which the means of social mobility - education, steady work, decent public facilities and infrastructure - are lacking, will largely turn out wretched. There will be ‘bad people’. Gang members, thieves, murderers, and worse. And their immediate targets will be people like you, deemed outsiders, rightly or wrongly. You can draw a direct line from the institution of systemic racism, through the wretchedness of your neighbours, to the awful things that have happened to you.

None of this absolves those who hurt you of responsibility. The additional tragedy of it is that they are in many ways even more responsible, lacking any social structures upon which they can lean and which can support them - upon which more fortunate communities can draw support from. The American dream of individual responsibility is nowhere more upheld than among its most wretched. It’s a nightmare, not a dream.

As for you, you have the choice and ability to not perpetuate the cycles which lead, inexorably but silently, to the kind of structural racial imbalances which ruin everything - including white people. Which is a fancy way of saying: of not being racist. I doubt you will be convinced by this. The immediacy and tragedy of your experience - which is concrete and individual - will always work to obscure these extra-concrete and extra-individual forces which inform your situation. You can see and hear a thief or a 'thug'. You can't see and hear a lack of social mobility - at lest not in the same, visceral way. It's hard work - unfair work - to have to learn to acknowledge those other forces. All I ask is that you keep it in mind.

:clap: Very well-balanced post. :up:

If the implication is that black people can be as oppressive as white people in the very few situations where they dominate, then I don't see a difficulty. I wouldn't want to suggest that black people are universally better than white. But America is overwhelmingly white dominated and it is white culture that creates and maintains the radicalised distinctions.

The forces ghettoisation are actually pretty impersonal. 'They' start to move in, and 'we' start to move out, and property values are affected so mortgages become problematic and renting is the only option... and so on. This is "systemic" racism at work, it's not an ideology that anyone promotes, but a pressure that people respond to without much thought. and when 'we' become the minority, and lose control of the neighbourhood, it is naturally a bad experience socially and financially.

Bad experiences with another group can really color someone's perspective and I don't know how many people are truly immune from this — BitconnectCarlos

And so the racial prejudice maintains itself, and prejudice is rationalised with ideology.

I don't feel like I have enough information to go on. It's one thing if neighbours don't want to talk to the police, it's another if they won't talk to a neighbour.

It's then surprising actually to read other questions in your reaction to me. You should've asked him.

Ernestm is going through a couple of steps reaching a conclusion we both don't support but saying "that's wrong" does nothing but invalidate his experiences without knowing where it takes a turn to the wrong conclusion. That's why I have questions. It's not a bad faith OP compared to some other racism apologists on this site (we all know who).

Maybe that's too much gloves on for your taste but I'd like to understand more of his situation.

It helps to remember CLASS when analyzing race relations. Here's a quote from an article on "the paradox of Minneapolis"

"White, non-Hispanic residents in the Twin Cities have median household incomes that are almost double that of black households. Here’s a look at the disparities between both groups."

That's not a paradox; that's the preferred, if not the planned outcome. What 20th century history shows is that blacks have been consistently barred from the avenues of economic advancement which have benefited many whites.

The major actions that keep and kept many blacks relatively or absolutely poor were not passed by a plebiscite or a ballot initiative. They actions were hatched and executed by the white wealthy Washington, D.C. elite, for their own interests. The post WWII boom was carefully tailored to build up a stable middle class and along the way, generate a landslide of wealth from the various consumption industries (real estate, construction, furnishings, autos, etc.).

Are white people, in general, to blame?

Some people -- white and not white -- would affirm white people's general guilt. I don't, even if white (middle class) people were the beneficiaries of the government policy.

The conditions of housing, employment, health, and education are bound together. Poor housing, unemployment, and low-performing schools go together. Poverty, poor housing, mediocre education, unemployment, and poor health outcomes are arranged in a circle, one factor aggravating the next. The same is true for affluence, good housing, excellent education, steady and upward mobile employment, and good health. One factor strengths the next.

Many working class white people, like working class black people, were left out of the good deals of the post WWII boom. They may not have been subjected to the same discrimination that blacks were, but in time their marginally superior economic position eroded down to about nothing.

Is there a SOLUTION? Next week? Next year? By 2030? No, The intervention required is multigenerational. We can certainly spend money on interventions, restitution, and uplift but carrying out an intervention over 40 or 50 years that yields excellent results is, literally, difficult to conceive.

Certainly the white power structure (the one that is IN CHARGE, IN CONTROL, AND IN PLACE) is pretty unlikely to come up with anything effective. That leaves the victims of the much longer multigenerational program of degradation to come up with a plan.

Some people -- white and not white -- would affirm white people's general guilt. I don't, even if white (middle class) people were the beneficiaries of the government policy. — Bitter Crank

I'm not sure it's that black and white. It's not as if white people haven't had an opportunity to become aware and once they were aware to vote for politicians that would enact different policies. They didn't. And I think the answer to that question is relatively simple: if you're white, racism is not your problem. Except, of course, when they protest.

What's probably an aggravating problem here is that class analysis is considered a Marxist exercise and "whoa, scary socialists". So poverty is a personal problem, you're lazy if you're poor and you deserve it. Nothing to do with how society works. And the worst about it is, those poor people usually work 2 jobs (usually standing on two feet too) just to make ends meet, while the rich complain about their 60 hour work weeks interspersed with luxurious lunches, fat pay-checks, holidays, comfort and the freedom to choose to live differently.

Even when a very successful player in the capitalist system tells you "There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning" class analysis is still shunned in the USA.

Anyhoo, since this thread is about personal experience. Let's also discuss what white people can do to help minorities as well. And I've thought a lot about to what extent it is even my place to talk about racism as a priviledged white man in the Netherlands (with some obvious faults). But not saying anything would be a betrayal of my beliefs of what a fair and just society is about.

So I'll give you some of the bad things. I think I just insulted/put off @180proof with the suggestion for a book title. In a thread about racism. Illustrating I'm still ignorant. Sorry for that. I can explain what I thought I was trying to say but it doesn't make it less ignorant. And I'm still ignorant as to why exactly due to the language barrier.

At 14 I had two good black friends (I went to an international school) and after a holiday where I got a good tan I saw them and proclaimed: "I almost joined you as a nigger!". After their initial shock they explained to me I should never ever say that again and why. It was my first time I became a bit aware.

During my student years a lot of jokes among white students involved the word "neger" which means "nigger" in Dutch. I'm pretty sure I told them myself and I certainly didn't speak out.

Being a non-racist is like a journey where you know you don't want to be one but you'll end up being a bit racist because you don't know better (ignorance) or adapt in some situations (ignorance and peer pressure). And I think I didn't seriously start that journey until I was around 30 or so.

My best friend has a mixed-race relationship and two kids. We talk about racism often and about the more insidious forms of it. The forms we barely notice. So here's some things from my personal experience that all-white people can do:

1. Listen. The first question in my mind I ask when people tell me about their experiences with racism (or mysogyny etc.) is: "Have I ever had to worry about this?". If the answer is no, I don't know and I can only try to understand vicariously.
2. In my last workplace I had a chance to decide on the norms and values of the organisation. So I pushed on diversity and inclusivity. We had quite a few minorities working there so a lot of people thought it wasn't necessary. Until I pointed out the pay grades. All the minorities were in the low paying jobs. And I had to move people from thinking about diversity (which is just head count) to inclusivity, which is about taking aboard differences and actually getting input from across the board.
3. Raising your kids to be aware. I actively pursue finding books and films with minority heroes. For instance, Moana instead of Frozen (if it has to be Disney). Black dolls. Black barbies etc. to counteract the negative stereotyping in society. There's very little to be had in Dutch though. :-( My daughter is 5, I'm already trying to talk about skin colour with her and the most beautiful thing about kids is that their innocence means the fairness and justice we later have to learn again, because we unlearn them living in society, comes totally natural. When in doubt, you can trust your child's moral compass! I go on a long weekend with my friend and his 5 year old so she has positive association with non-white kids because the village I live in is all white (seriously).
4. Silence is not an options. Nowadays, I do speak up at work, within the extended family (which contains some hard core racists, joy) when I hear things that are racist.
5. Support a cause. Put your money where your mouth is. In my case that's Amnesty International.

That was an amazing and sympathetic post!

I don't feel like I have enough information to go on. — Benkei

Racism will have bad consequences for white folk, too. But it does not follow that white lives do not matter.

I would have given ernestm some of my time, had he not concluded that I am black from my attitude.

He's too hurt to be helped.

Yep.

Yes.

Racism will have bad consequences for white folk, too. But it does not follow that white lives do not matter. — Banno

Agree.

I would have given ernestm some of my time, had he not concluded that I am black from my attitude.

He's too hurt to be helped. — Banno

I understand your reaction. But the reply is like slamming the door in someone's face, which, when you're hurting, is not going to help. I'm not convinced this is the right venue to get help either but I'm willing to give it a shot as far as my limited time allows. I'm a cat person too, I suppose.

@ernestm has as much to gain as anyone from joining the Black Lives Matter marches.

Absolutely.

Thanks.