Further, Obama's EO and sanctions were signed the day before the phone call, December 28th, not the morning of December 29th. This is another lie in Mueller's charge. — NOS4A2

"Sec. 5. This order is effective at 12:01 a.m. eastern standard time on December 29, 2016."

The charging document was referring to the day that the sanctions came into effect. Even if it were otherwise, it would be a mistake not a lie.

There is no evidence Flynn even knew about Obama's sanctions, because he doesn't mention them.

Kislyak mentions them and says that Russia has to do something about it. That's when Flynn says that if they do something then it should be reciprocal.

The charging document made clear this is what he lied about. Yet in the transcript he does not ask the Russian government to “refrain from escalating the situation”, as he clearly states “we're not going to escalate this thing“, and "I don't want us to get into something that have to escalate to tit-for-tat" [my emphasis]. "Us" and "we" I assume mean both countries or even America itself, but not Russia. What does your understanding about the distinction between words and meaning and the natural flow of conversation say about this? — NOS4A2

This is frankly ridiculous. I honestly don't believe that you believe your own attempt at a defense here, and if you're not going to argue in good faith then this is a waste of my time. The worst lawyers in the world wouldn't attempt this spin.

Or you do believe what you're saying in which case your lack of comprehension would make my attempt to explain the facts a wasted endeavour.

Let me help you with your reading comprehension skills again.

I really don't want us to get into a situation where we're going, you know~ where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody's got to go back and forth and everybody's got to be the tough guy here, you know?

Translation:

I really don't want Russia and the US to get into a situation that will escalate, you know?

And please make sure that its uh - the idea is, be - if you~ if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis. Then that, then that is a good message and we'll understand that message. And, and then, we know that we're not going to escalate this thing, where we~ where because if we put out- if we send out 30 guys and you send out 60, you know, or you shut down every Embassy, I mean we have to get this to a - let's, let's keep this at a level that uh is, is even-keeled, okay? ls even-keeled.

Translation:

Please make sure that if Russia has to do something it's on a reciprocal basis (he even explains what reciprocal means for you!), eg. even basis. That would be good and a message we would get. We would THEN know that Russia and the US are not going to escalate.

Summary:

Please don't escalate. If you don't, we get the message and we won't either.

Michael Flynn accepted a plea deal to to protect his son. "My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the Special Counsel’s Office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country". — NOS4A2

The full statement:

"But I recognize that the actions I acknowledged in court today were wrong, and, through my faith in God, I am working to set things right. My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the Special Counsel's Office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country. I accept full responsibility for my actions."

Let's also consider this:

Notwithstanding whether or not his conversations were lawful, even Trump acknowledged that Flynn lied about them.

e either asked Kislyak to refrain from escalating or he didn’t. He in fact did not. — NOS4A2

There's more than one way to say the same thing. One can ask that another refrain from escalating without saying exactly "refrain from escalating".

Honestly NOS4A2, this has got to be about the lowest I've seen you go, in your attempts to avoid the truth. You've learned well from the man you continuously defend. Tell me please, is it worth the effort, to lower yourself in this manner?

The bully husband leans over his wife's shoulder whilst she fills her ballot paper out. There you go, it ain't rocket science. — Chester

What should we call this new evil you have described? "Battered voter syndrome"?

Let me just check and make sure that this term is not already coined...

Oh shit: battered voter syndrome

It is the victim, in this instance, who chooses to "blame the victim," who chooses to hew to the objectively false belief that this time will be different, that the failure to govern amongst the politicians whose ideology appears to match their own is not a symptom of dishonest political hacks inhabiting the broken system which so appeals to those types, but is the fault of the other political party or of the ideologically impure (read: willing to compromise and innovate cooperatively) within their own party, which would be enabled to enact triumphant policies if only, if only the voters could straighten out their act and elect the ideologically pure for some sustained period and not be fooled by "moderates."

Sound familliar?

---

The marriage contract is not risk free, and in free countries women should have access to divorce if their civil rights are being violated by their husband. I don't really know what to say. A similar argument would be that marriage itself is wrong because of some inherent bullying risk. Blindly trade freedom for security and you will wind up with neither...

American Carnage — DJT 2020

Pandemic - preventable mass casualties ...
Depression-level unemployment ...
Nationwide urban anti-racist rebellion ...

:mask:

"Sec. 5. This order is effective at 12:01 a.m. eastern standard time on December 29, 2016."

You are right. I was wrong.

Kislyak mentions them and says that Russia has to do something about it. That's when Flynn says that if they do something then it should be reciprocal.

Yes, Kislyak mentions them. Flynn does not. Flynn certainly does not “ask the Government of Russia's Ambassador to the United States to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia that same day“. Rather, he consistently spoke about the State Department’s decision to expel Russian diplomats, not Obama’s response. Not once did he mention sanctions, and not once did he ask Russia to not escalate in response to sanctions. This is why you can’t quote Flynn saying such a thing, that you need to leave certain parts of his quotes out, that you can only keep asserting he did while pretending I don’t understand meaning and language or that I’m acting in bad faith.

On top of that, Flynn didn’t do a single thing wrong in that phone call, and threw water on a potentially dangerous situation. He was railroaded for it.

Postal voting is open to abuse, there is nothing more to discuss on the matter.Your eyes are open to reality or they are closed.

I don't really want to bring Brexit onto this thread either.

How many husbands are beating their wives into voting differently then?

"Pandemic - preventable mass casualties ...
Depression-level unemployment ...
Nationwide urban anti-racist rebellion ..."

Like you would have done a better job of stopping a pandemic...even the Norwegians are admitting that lock down may have been a bad idea because of the economic costs and the fact that they have built no herd immunity unlike Sweden.

Depression level unemployment will affect the world equally if it happens at all.

It's not a anti-racist rebellion, it's an excuse to destroy and steal.

Who knows. It was an example of why postal votes are not a good option...it's a lot harder to force someone to vote in a particular way at a polling station...that's why they were created dumb-ass.

Many countries have done better, ergo, Trump did a terrible job.

7 EU countries plus the UK have a higher death rate per million than the US...so you are admitting that most of the EU have done a terrible job too...that Trump has done better than most Western EU countries?

7 EU countries plus the UK have a higher death rate per million than the US...so you are admitting that most of the EU have done a terrible job too...that Trump has done better than most Western EU countries? — Chester

How many member states does the EU have again?

Death rate and mortality rate are not a measure for this. See : https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/402318

You're missing the point. All, the important countries , barring Germany, have higher death rates than the US. Malta may have a lower death rate I'll give you that.

On top of that, Flynn didn’t do a single thing wrong in that phone call, and threw water on a potentially dangerous situation. He was railroaded for it. — NOS4A2

The question is not whether he did something wrong in the phone call, it's whether he lied about it later. Clearly he did lie, because obviously he did talk to the ambassador requesting that Russia not take any actions which would escalate the situation. This is what he claimed that he did not do. He even recognized himself that he lied and plead guilty to making those lies.

If you can get yourself beyond this simple reality, instead of trying to rationalize his lying as something other than lying, then you might address the real issue of why he lied? Did he believe that what he did was wrong, having a guilty conscience, or was he subjected to undue pressure (torture or something) from the investigators, and this induced his lies? Did he simply forget? Or did he lie for some other reason?

Well it seams we pick the measure that best suits our political agenda. The point still stands that the US death rate is far lower than France for instance. Places like New York and Los Angeles are far more likely to import such a disease as well given their connectivity to the wider world (even though the left cried like babies when Trump tried to stop flights from China) So America is directly comparable to advanced Western countries in Europe. They've done better than us by any sensible measure, even if people like you try to contrive numbers in a way that suits your anti Trump motive.

I see that there are questions over how Germany has been counting its victims too. Such things will become clear when excess deaths are properly evaluated over time.

This site
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
contains data relevant to this discussion. Including definitions of some terms.

Anyone who uses this data to defend Trump is just being stupid or a Trump-troll apologist.

Trump is one thing, The pandemic quite another, Where the two intersect, Trump is indefensible.

Apart - where Trump and pandemic do not intersect - the pandemic is still the pandemic, and Trump is still indefensible.

I have directly challenged several of the Trumpsters here to list more than one good thing he has done (he did do one good thing, although not nearly as well as he could have). Would gentle reader be interested in how many good things were listed? Zero. ZERO. And that is against, just in the pages of this longest-of-all threads, hundreds of listings of bad things he's done.

Trumpsters, you've become nothing more than the mole in a game of whack-a-mole. Improve the world - you can do it - find some other occupation that at least is not so stupid on its face. Try thinking for example, and truth and honesty too. With just these, Trumpsters, you will be surprised at how much better life can be.

Who knows.

Precisely.

It was an example of why postal votes are not a good option...it's a lot harder to force someone to vote in a particular way at a polling station...that's why they were created dumb-ass.

And what about the voters who can't get to the polling station, or are away from home etc?

I am a polling officer and I see plenty of couples where one person tells the other where to put their cross in the polling booth, or writes it for them.

You've just been duped by the Brexit party.

Oh, but a polling officer wouldn't know anything about polling would they? You will say.

This is just ridiculous. You picked one that's obviously wrong and I explained why. I didn't even offer the right measure in my reply so accusing me of selecting one to suit my political agenda (as if I even have one!) is just stupid. It's good to know you're politically motivated, I suppose.

You're missing the point. All, the important countries , barring Germany, have higher death rates than the US. Malta may have a lower death rate I'll give you that. — Chester

Right. So the only important countries in the world are the USA, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Sweden, Ireland and Denmark.

I guess Asia doesn't exist?

Postal voting should be only for the disabled and armed forces members that are serving abroad...everyone else can get off their fat arses or not vote, the choice is theirs.

Covid is still a thing.

There is only one correct way of measuring the impact of this virus (in terms of how well a country has avoided its deathly impact) and that is deaths per head of population over and above the norm...any other way of measuring can be manipulated.

China....what's their death rate...are you going to believe the CCP?

Yeah, but Trump isn't responsible the the world wide mayhem and misery that it has caused...the CCP are entirely to blame.

South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand?

Those countries have nowhere near the connectivity of the US. New Zealand is the safest country in the world in terms of its susceptibility to pandemics. From what I've read a great deal of the US virus came from Italy...those countries have nowhere near the level of connections to Europe (which became the hot bed after China).