You make light of my point because you know I am correct, the bullying husband can force the wife to vote against her will.

Why do leftists think they own facts? Facts are truth whether you like them or not. Now admit that it is clearly easier to corrupt postal votes than traditional voting where you go into a private booth and others can't see who you vote for...go on, admit a truth, it's hard admitting something you don't like.

And by the way I notice you called me a racist, you wouldn't do that to my face so play nice keyboard warrior.

You can't tell fact from opinion, so your assessment that the left thinks it owns facts is worthless, baseless and silly.

Facts are truth whether you like them or not. — Chester

the problem is, Chester, even if it were possible to be sure in absolute terms that a 'fact' is indeed a 'fact,' that the selection of particular 'facts' as being those which one evaluates as 'true' is itself an act of bias. I do understand alot of people have trouble understanding that, but generally not philosophers.

that the selection of particular 'facts' as being those which one evaluates as 'true' is itself an act of bias. — ernestm

So what do we do with statistics? (cue M. Twain)

right.

And by the way I notice you called me a racist, you wouldn't do that to my face so play nice keyboard warrior. — Chester

I didn't. Though your blustering is amusing.

You leftists have a strange relationship with truth, often you argue against a truth which normal people can see obviously and instantly. I think that often it is because your ilk believes itself to be cleverer than you are — Chester

So when you said you liked arguing, what you meant was you like to insult people?

Only a moron would believe that there is no corruption involved in postal votes. When a system is easy to corrupt it will be corrupted...there's a basic fact for you. — Chester

What does that have to do with my initial question about ideas?

"Don't feed the trolls" (re: tRumptards). :mask:

You make light of my point because you know I am correct, the bullying husband can force the wife to vote against her will. — Chester

Could be. We still do mail-in early voting. Democrats will be out making sure Biden voters know how to mail-in. Trump voters will be what?

Don't feed the trolls" (re: tRumptards). :mask: — 180 Proof

It's nice to talk to people who aren't verbally abusive tho.

Facts are truth whether you like them or not. — Chester

Facts are facts. Truth is something else. Some people use the two words interchangeably, which is too bad because that obscures the difference; and when the difference matters, means that a person has lost his or her way in their own thinking.

They professionally managed so-called “protesters” at the White House had little to do with the memory of George Floyd. They were just there to cause trouble. The @SecretService handled them easily. Tonight, I understand, is MAGA NIGHT AT THE WHITE HOUSE???

— Donald J. Trump

Could he be a worse leader and bigger asshole?

Could he be a worse leader and bigger asshole? — praxis

Yes, he could be a capable asshole like Putin. As it stands, Donnie's incompetence is somewhat of a blessing.

There are some contradictions in the Mueller charging documents. As the transcripts show, Flynn in fact did not ask the Russian ambassador to “refrain from escalating”, but asked him to “make it reciprocal”. “Because I don’t want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat”. He said this in regards to the dismissal of Russians from the country, not the sanctions.

As for the rest of it it’s what one would call diplomacy.

The charge says:

Immediately after his phone call with the PTT official, FLYNN called the Russian Ambassador and requested that Russia not escalate the situation and only respond to the U.S. Sanctions in a reciprocal manner.

The transcript says:

So, you know, depending on, depending on what uh, actions they take over this current issue of the cyber stutf, you know, where they're looking like they're gonna, they're gonna dismiss some number of Russians out of the country, I understand all that and I understand that ~ that, you know, the information that they have and all that, but what I would ask Russia to do is to not - is - is - if anything - because I know you have to have some sort of action - to, to only make it reciprocal. Make it reciprocal. Don't - don't make it- don't go any further than you have to. Because I don't want us to get into something that has to escalate, on a, you know, on a tit for tat. You follow me, Ambassador?

...

I know, I - believe me, I do appreciate it, I very much appreciate it. But I really don't want us to get into a situation where we're going, you know~ where we do this and then you do something bigger, and then you know, everybody's got to go back and forth and everybody's got to be the tough guy here, you know?

...

And please make sure that its uh - the idea is, be - if you~ if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis. Then that, then that is a good message and we'll understand that message. And, and then, we know that we're not going to escalate this thing, where we~ where because if we put out- if we send out 30 guys and you send out 60, you know, or you shut down every Embassy, I mean we have to get this to a - let's, let's keep this at a level that uh is, is even-keeled, okay? ls even-keeled.

Claiming that there are "some contradictions in the Mueller charging documents" because the exact phrase "refrain from escalating" doesn't appear is some ridiculous mental gymnastics.

As for the rest of it it’s what one would call diplomacy.

Maybe, but he lied to the FBI about it and pleaded guilty (twice) to it. The Justice Department now deciding to drop the case is evidently some corrupt move by Barr to protect a Trump ally.

He either asked Kislyak to refrain from escalating or he didn’t. He in fact did not. It takes some mental gymnastics to say he did.

Here’s the charging documents: https://www.justice.gov/file/1015026/download

He either asked Kislyak to refrain from escalating or he didn’t. He in fact did not. It takes some mental gymnastics to say he did. — NOS4A2

He did ask Kislyak to refrain from escalating. You can read it right there in the transcripts. It is false to claim that he didn't ask Kislyak to refrain from escalating because he didn't use the sentence "refrain from escalating". As this is a philosophy forum, perhaps engaging in some actual philosophy (of language) – or even just linguistics in general – will teach you the distinction between words and meaning.

He did ask Kislyak to refrain from escalating. You can read it right there in the transcripts. It is false to claim that he didn't ask Kislyak to refrain from escalating because he didn't use the sentence "refrain from escalating". As this is a philosophy forum, perhaps engaging in some philosophy (of language) -- or even just linguistics in general -- will teach you the distinction between words and meaning.

Even if I do agree with you (I don’t; we’re talking about putting people in jail for making false statements, so precision is important), did he in fact say so in regards to “US Sanctions”? Or did he say so in regard to the expelling of Russian diplomats?

did he in fact say so in regards to “US Sanctions”? Or did he say so in regard to the expelling of Russian diplomats? — NOS4A2

Both.

KISLYAK: We agree. One of the problems among the measures that have been announced today is that now FSB and GRU are sanctions, are sanctioned, and I ask myself, uh~ does it mean that the United States isn't willing to work on terrorist threats?
FLYNN: Yeah, yeah.
KISLYAK: Because that's the people who are exactly, uh, fighting the terrorists.
FLYNN: Yeah, yeah, yep.
KISLYAK: So that's something that we have to deal with. But I've heard what you say, and I certainly will try·-
FLYNN: Yeah.
KISLYAK: - to get the people in Moscow to understand it.
FLYNN: Yeah.
[Timestamp 08:00]
FLYNN: And please make sure that its uh - the idea is, be - if you~ if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis. Then that, then that is a good message and we'll understand that message.

You really are clutching at straws here. Flynn was charged with and pleaded guilty to (under penalty of perjury) lying when he claimed not to have talked to Kislyak about not escalating the situation in response to Obama's response to Russian interference. He's guilty, and ought be sentenced accordingly. Barr's decision to drop the case is corruption.

In contradiction to the charging documents, it is true that “On or about December 29, 2016, FLYNN did not ask the Government of Russia’s Ambassador to the United States ("Russian Ambassador") to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia that same day”.

In fact, Flynn requested that Russia respond in “a reciprocal manner” to the expelling of “some number of Russians out of the country”.

Yes, he could be a capable asshole like Putin. As it stands, Donnie's incompetence is somewhat of a blessing. — Marchesk

Especially for Vladimir. :grin:

But it*s so also for the Saudi's. Any other US President likely would have given them a tougher time especially with the war in Yemen, all the bullshit towards Qatar and for the palace coup, not to mention the sloppy killing of a opposition member in Turkey. But just to play on Trump's narcissism and waving money in front of Jared does the trick...





Yet Bibi really has made it into an art!

Did you just not read the transcript I posted above? In response to Kislyak saying that "that's something that we have to deal with" in response to sanctions against FSB and GRU, Flynn says "if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis [i.e. don't escalate]".

Also, that's not the only charge of lying.

On or about December 22, 2016, FLYNN did not ask the Russian Ambassador to delay the vote on or defeat a pending United Nations Security Council resolution; and that the Russian Ambassador subsequently never described to FLYNN Russia's response to his request.

Kislyak: So, we will try to help, uh, uh, to give additional time for the conversation on ... on this issue, but if it is put on vote, uh, for historical reasons, as I explained to you,
Flynn: Uh huh ...
Kislyak: ... We cannot vote, uh, other than to support it.
Flynn: Okay.
Kislyak: That is something, uh, that is, uh, part of the position that we have developed, with the, um, countries in the region for a long period of time. But, uh, responding to your, uh, telephone call and our conversations, we will try to help, uh, to~ uh~ postpone the vote and to allow for consultations.
Flynn: Okay. That's .. that's good.

Flynn is guilty of lying to the FBI, just as he pleaded. Accept it.

Glad that that's cleared up. So why were the charges dropped? Investigation number 3?

I did read it, but I also read what you suspiciously left out of it.

And please make sure that its uh - the idea is, be - if you~ if you have to do something, do something on a reciprocal basis, meaning you know, on a sort of an even basis. Then that, then that is a good message and we'll understand that message. And, and then, we know that we're not going to escalate this thing, where we~ where because if we put out- if we send out 30 guys and you send out 60, you know, or you shut down every Embassy, r mean we have to get this to a - lefs, let's keep this at a level that uh is, is even-keeled, okay? ls even-keeled. And then what we can do is, when we come in, we can then have a better conversation about where, where we're gonna go, uh~ regarding uh, regarding our relationship. And also, basically we have to take these, these enemies on that we have. And we definitely have a common enemy. You have a problem with it, we have a problem with it in this country, and we definitely have a problem with it in the Middle East.

Clearly he's still talking about the expelling of diplomats.

On or about December 22, 2016, FLYNN did not ask the Russian Ambassador to delay the vote on or defeat a pending United Nations Security Council resolution; and that the Russian Ambassador subsequently never described to FLYNN Russia's response to his request.

Kislyak: So, we will try to help, uh, uh, to give additional time for the conversation on ... on this issue, but if it is put on vote, uh, for historical reasons, as I explained to you,
Flynn: Uh huh ...
Kislyak: ... We cannot vote, uh, other than to support it.
Flynn: Okay.
Kislyak: That is something, uh, that is, uh, part of the position that we have developed, with the, um, countries in the region for a long period of time. But, uh, responding to your, uh, telephone call and our conversations, we will try to help, uh, to~ uh~ postpone the vote and to allow for consultations.
Flynn: Okay. That's .. that's good.

No where in that quote did Flynn ask the Russian Ambassador to delay the vote on or defeat a pending United Nations Security Council resolution. Unfortunately, the December 22nd phone call remains classified.

I think Flynn is going to be one the most darkest figures in the history of US Intelligence services even if he is eclipsed by Donald Trump altogether.

He is in a way for the US what the Cambridge Five were to the British intelligence services. The scars that the US intelligence services have taken from the Trump ordeal will be far greater than the British suffered from it's famous Russian spy ring inside it's intelligence establishment. Those of course were career spies who understood what they had done, just like the American turncoats during the Cold War, Trump is more likely simply not have understood what strange bedfellows he got with his profitable Russian contacts. Who could have known that the FBI's mission is to look at what hostile foreign intelligence services do in the US?

Of course the whole Trump episode in US history will likely play out like the war in Iraq: to admit that the justification for the Iraqi invasion, the hoax reasoning of then nonexistent WMD's (yes, before Iraq did have a WMD project) and the fictitious link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein was a sham that took years to go through especially in right wing circles. I remember well that on the older PF site some people were adamantly defending the "official" line" for the war in Iraq as a sign of patriotism. Freedom fries and all that. It will take a GOP / right-wing politician to say what is known even now as the truth, and in this case the huge irony was that it was Donald Trump himself that popped the fictitious bubble of the Iraq war and WMD's himself and buried the older Bush brother in the race for the Republican candidacy.

Flynn is guilty of lying to the FBI, just as he pleaded. Accept it. — Michael

:up:

"Facts are stubborn things, whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." ~John Adams

No where in that quote did Flynn ask the Russian Ambassador to delay the vote on or defeat a pending United Nations Security Council resolution. Unfortunately, the December 22nd phone call remains classified. — NOS4A2

That was the call where he was told what Russia will do, which he lied about.

And "But, uh, responding to your, uh, telephone call and our conversations, we will try to help, uh, to~ uh~ postpone the vote and to allow for consultations" refers to the previous call, which evidently had something to do with asking for the vote to at least be delayed, given both what the words say and that Flynn pleaded guilty to having lied about not having done this.

I did read it, but I also read what you suspiciously left out of it. — NOS4A2

I left it out because I knew you would use it to try to divert away the clear connection between Kislyak saying that something has to be done about the sanctions and Flynn saying that if something has to be done it should be on a reciprocal basis. Given that you don't seem to understand the distinction between words and meaning and so try to argue that Flynn didn't ask Russia to refrain from escalating because he didn't use the sentence "refrain from escalating" I guess it was too much to expect you to understand the natural flow of conversation.

Let's say that a common sense idea is that postal voting is easy to manipulate , easy to corrupt. To attempt to destroy that concept leftists say not having postal votes is racist... but in no way address the point of postal voting corruption.

That's a Brexit party meme, it's weird the way they convinced themselves that democracy in the UK is under threat from bullying husbands.
So Faridge sold you out to the moderate Tory's, now you've got that buffoon in Downing st, your precious Brexit is going to be chaos and economic ruin. And guess who will get the blame? The Brexit party and UKIP, Johnson will dodge the blame and pin it on Faridge.

Happy days.

On or about December 29, 2016, FLYNN did not ask the Government of Russia's Ambassador to the United States ("Russian Ambassador") to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia that same day; and FLYNN did not recall the Russian Ambassador subsequently telling him that Russia had chosen to moderate its response to those sanctions as a result of his request; and

https://www.justice.gov/file/1015026/download

The charging document made clear this is what he lied about. Yet in the transcript he does not ask the Russian government to “refrain from escalating the situation”, as he clearly states “we're not going to escalate this thing“, and "I don't want us to get into something that have to escalate to tit-for-tat" [my emphasis]. "Us" and "we" I assume mean both countries or even America itself, but not Russia. What does your understanding about the distinction between words and meaning and the natural flow of conversation say about this?

There is no evidence Flynn even knew about Obama's sanctions, because he doesn't mention them. The expulsions of diplomats were declared and enforced by the State Department, not by Obama's EO.

Further, Obama's EO and sanctions were signed the day before the phone call, December 28th, not the morning of December 29th. This is another lie in Mueller's charge.

Michael Flynn accepted a plea deal to to protect his son. "My guilty plea and agreement to cooperate with the Special Counsel’s Office reflect a decision I made in the best interests of my family and of our country".