wasn't referring to any specific shooting. — Baden

You were referring to a hypothetical shooting?

Relevance? — Baden

If my post were irrelevant, then why spend several more posts responding to it?

Quote me where I claimed that. Or even mentioned you. — Baden

And yet the next several posts of yours express your disbelief that I'd say what I said as if I'm missing your sense of conscience.

Unbelievable by the way that you would compare unarmed protesters risking their lives for the cause of racial equality to a bunch of spoilt bitches with huge guns fighting for the right to spread a deadly virus to the old and vulnerable. — Baden

And you've pointed out irrelevant distinctions, as you could expect I'm likely capable of recognizing the distinctions you've pointed out without your pointing them out.

As to your point that nonviolent protests end in violence disproportionately by race, you have no evidence of that unless you go back many decades, and even then not always.

Let's try that with Black Lives Matter and see what happens. — Baden

Are we now talking about a real event or a hypothetical one? I hypothesize the same result as if they were white.

But we're making no headway now, so back to the OP. With all the video evidence we have, do you convict for murder or not? If the races reversed, do you convict? If they're all the same race, do you convict?

I answer I'm not sure yet for all those questions.

But we're making no headway now, so back to the OP. With all the video evidence we have, do you convict for murder or not? If the races reversed, do you convict? If they're all the same race, do you convict? — Hanover

You don't seriously doubt that racism was involved.

don't seriously doubt that racism was involved. — Banno

The question was whether you'd convict, not whether they were racist. If a racist is having his shotgun wrestled from him, does that change his right to fire it?

You were referring to a hypothetical shooting? — Hanover

I was giving a generic example, obviously. You're working hard to be confused here.

If my post were irrelevant, then why spend several more posts responding to it? — Hanover

I questioned the relevance of one comparison in your post and emphasized that with further examples pointing to its absurdity.

And yet the next several posts of yours express your disbelief that I'd say what I said as if I'm missing your sense of conscience. — Hanover

You've inserted "conscience" in there. The comparison is absurd. I haven't made a judgement on why you would make such an absurd comparison. Awaiting your explanantion.

Are we now talking about a real event or a hypothetical one? I hypothesize the same result as if they were white. — Hanover

You think if Black Lives Matter protesters armed with assault rifles took over government buildings, the police would ignore them and the President would congratulate them? Again, that's absurd.

But we're making no headway now, so back to the OP. With all the video evidence we have, do you convict for murder or not? If the races reversed, do you convict? If they're all the same race, do you convict? — Hanover

Nobody here can say for sure whether there should be a conviction of murder until all the evidence has come out. I very much doubt though, along with Banno, that these guys would be hunting down a white jogger and I find the idea that anyone can legally be accosted by armed buffoons simply because they trespassed on a construction site a further symptom of America's diseased notions of liberty.

There’s local news showing armed black militia men marching up and down McMichaels street.

https://www.wdkx.com/black-militia-patrols-home-of-suspect-accused-of-killing-georgia-jogger/

Good, I hope they take over some government buildings.

Or since they are in a neighborhood maybe someone’s home?

The question was whether you'd convict, not whether they were racist. — Hanover

That's not the question in the OP. That question went to asking how many cases there are that are simply not bought to wider attention. Hence the link to Aboriginal deaths in custody, which remain high despite considerable public scrutiny.

If a racist is having his shotgun wrestled from him, does that change his right to fire it? — Hanover

Why the fuck are white 'mercan folk so scared that they grab their guns and chase coloured folk around the streets? Why the fuck do they even feel a need for guns?

Seems to me there's much deeper cultural issues here than just racism.

Anyway, my question to you: Do you doubt that racism was involved?

Watch this space...

If a racist is having his shotgun wrestled from him, does that change his right to fire it? — Hanover

Do you think you have an absolute right to wave your shotgun in someone's face? It seems to me that wrestling a shotgun from someone who is threatening you with it is justified self-defence and may be your only chance of staying alive. So, no, he didn't deserve to be shot. The vigilantes should not have been there.

Moreover, why did the vigilante have a shotgun? What is it that they are so scared of?

Funny satire. Guns for everyone. Unless you don’t look, talk and think like me.

They're not vigilantes. Arbery was a regular runner, training I believe, he was obviously targeted for some reason.

I think guns act as a substitute for some American's lack of power over their own lives. They're weak, confused, and somebody out there (probably a brown dude or at least not of their ilk) is doing it to them.

Whatever.

vigilante | ˌvɪdʒɪˈlanti |
noun
a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.

But you are the expert on definitions.

There was no law being enforced, the man killed was an innocent runner. It's not a crime to run.

I think guns act as a substitute for some American's lack of power over their own lives. They're weak, confused, and somebody out there (probably a brown dude or at least not of their ilk) is doing it to them. — Baden

Perhaps. But 'mercans behave in different ways to folk from other, even superficially similar, countries.

I think the myth of the self-made individual, that puts the blame for lack of success on lack of effort and even on lack of moral fortitude has a large part to play. Hence a failed family has to prove their strength and hence worth to those around them.

Yep.

The most important thing in this thread is that we decide if, or if not, these poor foolish bastards were vigilantes.

I think the myth of the self-made individual, that puts the blame for lack of success on lack of effort and even on lack of moral fortitude has a large part to play. Hence a failed family has to prove theor strength and hence worth to those around them. — Banno

Yes, in the US there's an unusual amount of social stigma attached to not being a "success" (i.e. not being rich) but there's also an unusual amount of social capital to be had by toting a big gun (in some circles). The latter being considered somewhat compensatory for the former.

An Irishman and an Aussie sharing a soapbox on a topic they’ve never been in embedded in, or a part of, lacks authenticity. ‘Mericans in here see right through the lack of good insight.

There is no evidence that Arbery was even on the referenced construction site, just a mysterious, unidentified 911 caller speaking about a black man running form the site. Arbery was known to run that route. Sounds like a setup to me.

But cannot articulate it, it seems.

That and a video of a fella in the building.

But fuck all that minutia. Two white guys chased and shoot a black guy, and it was covered up.

There's your issue.

think guns act as a substitute for some American's lack of power over their own lives. They're weak, confused, and somebody out there (probably a brown dude or at least not of their ilk) is doing it to them. — Baden

Prolly right. Let's stereotype while trying to figure out why people stereotype.

That and a video of a fella in the building. — Banno

I saw a clip of that video, the person doesn't even look like the runner, not wearing the same clothes. But I believe it was from a different day, and nothing was stolen anyway.

That's the problem with the vigilante excuse, there's no records of any crimes having been committed.

vigilante excuse — Metaphysician Undercover

Ah.


I hadn't considered it an excuse.

A proposed excuse for premeditated murder, I think.

And for whom would such an excuse work? Who is the audience for such a claim? And why would they think such behaviour reasonable?

I said "some" for a reason. I'm guessing something like that may have applied in this case. Although there are other less charitable explanations that are also plausible.

Do you think you have an absolute right to wave your shotgun in someone's face — Baden

That's not what happened. But, hypothetically, no.

So, no, he didn't deserve to be shot. The vigilantes should not have been there. — Baden

This is a legal question, not a moral one. They.were not in violation of the law to be there. They were there because they were racist morons. So, the question is whether a racist moron is in violation of the law when someone tries to wrestle his loaded shotgun from him and the guy gets shot? I say not if he has reason to believe the cuckoo wrestler man intended less than a kind gesture after he got the gun in his possession.