One understandable concern which one may have is as follows: what if the State itself, monopolistic wielder of coercion that it is, is corrupt and seeks to use its coercive power for ill rather than for the social good? — Virgo Avalytikh
any individual who takes it upon herself to be peaceful rather than violent is making herself worse off: she will have fewer resources (because she does not kill for ‘competition’), she will be in greater danger from others (because she does not kill for ‘diffidence’), and she will have less glory too, although this strikes me as less urgent. — Virgo Avalytikh
we must ask, ‘What do the three co-equal branches of government have a realistic incentive to do?’ Do the three co-equal branches of government have a realistic incentive to hold one another in check, and to prevent each other from growing in power? — Virgo Avalytikh
That is one of the reasons why I say that political theory has to be underwritten by Christianity, or something like it. — Wayfarer
There has to be some rationale for treating others as one would treat oneself, if it is not to be something other than a wishful platitude - a real philosophical rationale, with some sense of binding power. — Wayfarer
Overall, I'm in agreement with Churchill's gloomy prognostication - that democracy has many dreadful shortcomings, but that it's the least evil of the possible alternatives. — Wayfarer
The rationale is the one which is illustrated by the iterated prisoner's dilemma: successful strategies are those which can work well with other strategies, and this is why rational egoists will tend, counter-intuitively, towards peaceful cooperation. — Virgo Avalytikh
have you by any chance encountered the dialectics of the Enlightenment? — Wayfarer
Would every person be required to construct their own road? — Wayfarer
Would there be no public property? — Wayfarer
It seems to me that anarchy is simply the social manifestation of chaos — Wayfarer
The democratic state is not a monopolistic agency, but a contract between free individuals to manage their affairs in the most mutually beneficial manner. — Wayfarer
For everyone to hand over to a government absolute power and authority... — Virgo Avalytikh
The OP seems to conflate authority and authoritarianism. — Galuchat
Granting authority doesn't necessarily entail the exercise of "absolute power" (authoritarianism). — Galuchat
As I mentioned, I am re-constructing Hobbes's own position. — Virgo Avalytikh
And using the (agreed, but for different reasons) falsity of Hobbes' (supposed) two theses to justify anarchism or limited government as alternatives to totalitarianism.
Then dispensing with the limited government ("non-totalitarian Statist") alternative, because its proponents' reasons for rejecting Hobbes' second thesis are inadequate. — Galuchat
My point remains unaddressed. — Galuchat
My claim is not that all States are totalitarian, but that there is a tendency towards totalitarianism, such that the checks and balances, to which such confident appeal is typically made, are shown to be unfit for purpose. — Virgo Avalytikh
This is truest when it is acknowledged that to express oneself in such a fashion, seldom lends itself to clarity, as perceived by another. — Vessuvius
Let us hope, that all those in observance of this exchange of ours can appreciate the great irony which underlies it. — Vessuvius
Quite simply, it is in the interests of the State in toto to maintain and grow the power of the State in toto; it is plausible that the growth of the power and influence of the State involves the growth of all three branches of government. — Virgo Avalytikh
t will always be in the interests of the larger and more influential political party (firm) to exercise the powers granted by the constitution, and to ignore its limitations as far as is possible. Meanwhile, the weaker and less influential party (firm) will have the opposite incentives, to hold the larger party to obey its restrictions, and to resist and question every exercise of power, whether legitimate or not. The larger party will seek to ignore and flout its restrictions, and the weaker party will seek to uphold them. What will the outcome be? ‘In a contest so unequal,’ says Calhoun, ‘the result would not be doubtful.’ The larger and more powerful party (firm) will tend to be successful in enforcing its own interpretation of the limits placed upon it, and so, over time, there is an inevitable tendency towards a ‘liberalising’ (in a pejorative sense) of the constitution’s interpretation (regulatory principles), and thence to totalitarianism (removal of regulatory principles' efficacy, no democratic influence over aggregate corporate behaviour). — Virgo Avalytikh
A private firm must continually satisfy its consumers in order to survive; the profit-and-loss system encourages the firm to be hyper-sensitive to the degree to which it effectively satisfies consumer preferences. If a large firm has a commercially poor week or month, it must ask itself what it must do immediately so as to reclaim its customers, who are at liberty to shop elsewhere upon the turn of a dime. The State (approaching monopoly firm), on the other hand, hardly faces such constraints. — Virgo Avalytikh
General question: what kind of markets do you think can exist without governments, and why? — fdrake
The same analysis would hold for firms. As does this apt (though repurposed) description of firms attempting to obtain and keep market control: — fdrake
And the latter description of the state also applies to a firm which already has disproportionate influence: — fdrake
The war you so aptly characterise between the people and the state is actually fought between the people and state + firms. — fdrake
I'm not entirely certain what you mean by 'kinds' of markets. I understand a 'market' to be a process, in which the participants are buyers and sellers of goods and services. I understand markets to be 'free' just in case the exchanges take place by way of peaceful voluntarism rather than by threat or use of force (as in the case of theft, extortion, and so on). If the initiation of force and the invasion of private property are objectionable - and I believe that they are - then the non-existence of the State is a necessary (though not sufficient) condition of a free market. So the only way I can think to answer your question is that the kind of market which would exist in the State's absence is, I hope, a free one, in the sense that voluntary exchanges are not interrupted and invaded by an aggressor, however benevolent. — Virgo Avalytikh
First - and I do not offer this as a rebuttal, but merely as a principle to bear in mind - we must never fall into the trap of thinking that 'States', 'firms', 'corporations' or 'markets' subsist. These are aggregations of individual persons, and it is only these persons who are the real actors, the conscious agents. Neither States nor firms have their own inherent agency. — Virgo Avalytikh
Firms exist (in whatever sense they may be said to exist) on the same continuum of peaceful voluntarism as other behaviours which people ought to have the right to engage in. — Virgo Avalytikh
So, there is some truth in the above statement, in that those who are in a position to benefit from illicit government privileges have every reason to do so. But I cannot see how firms in general are at war with me. I benefit from the goods and services which they sell me, and they benefit from my patronage. Unless I believe that the goods and services which I purchase are such that I should be furnished with them unconditionally - and I see no reason why that should be the case - there is no war to speak of, here. — Virgo Avalytikh
Well, your characterisation of a market is quite limited there. You stipulate under what conditions a market is free, without considering what a market is! — fdrake
If you're going to treat markets as independent of states, this is a bit bizarre if states are required for certain market organisations - especially the one we have now globally, no? Markets like ours need banks and laws governing the banks. Markets like ours need trade laws to interface with social institutions. State and market entwine, and have a revolving door staffing policy (at least in the UK and US), firms form alliances with dictators. More on this later... — fdrake
I wonder why you leave access control to goods out of the definition of a free market? — fdrake
(EG, a company owns an IP on a necessary invention or has exclusive extraction rights on a natural resource). — fdrake
This is just wrong; real companies can and do have institutional powers not reducible to the individual powers of their agents (only an aggregate can have laws). — fdrake
Also in the real world, people must work otherwise we don't eat. In general, this involves selling one's labour to a company in exchange for a wage. Obeying the dictates of the company becomes a necessity for getting food in your mouth and a roof over your head. — fdrake
Companies have a real existence and interests separate from their workers, separate from their shareholders and especially different from their stakeholders and staff — fdrake
You might think differently if you were on another end of the supply chain — fdrake
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