what? You want him reelected? If he survives impeachment procedures it means in the eye of the public that he didn't do it.

what? You want him reelected? If he survives impeachment procedures it means in the eye of the public that he didn't do it. — Benkei

To hell with it. That is 'politics over principle'. He must face impeachment. I don't see how the Dems can face their electorates without bringing impeachment, not to do so is to give Trump an even bigger win. If Mitch McConnell rejects the impeachment finding, then let it be on GOP heads.

To hell with it. That is 'politics over principle'. He must face impeachment. I don't see how the Dems can face their electorates without bringing impeachment, not to do so is to give Trump an even bigger win. If Mitch McConnell rejects the impeachment finding, then let it be on GOP heads. — Wayfarer

That's not politics over principle. That's employing politics to reach the principled goal of removing an unfit president. If they lose the election, they can always try to impeach after that. If you try to impeach and lose, you have obtained neither the presidency nor his removal.

We’ll see. Momentum is building for impeachment.

Great. If that's the case then it will be a horrible case of inexperience compounded by impatience.

Justice ought not to be avoided simply because a case might not result in conviction. I think the dems are duty bound to make the case to the 'american people' even if said people are too stupid to understand what's good for them.

I didn't say never, I said, wait until after the presidential election.

Edit: Also a nice example of the elitist bullshit that has people that "are too stupid to understand what's good for them" vote for Trump.

He'll campaign on the fact that 'the Mueller report said there was no collusion', and will be believed. Although I also think that a lot of very influential people must now be starting to wonder about Trump's fitness for office, the last week has been appalling even by his appalling standards. I'm still hoping that the wheels fall off before the next campaign.

Edit: Also a nice example of the elitist bullshit that has people that "are too stupid to understand what's good for them" vote for Trump.

That’s the sort of sleaze that got Trump elected in the first place. These are the same guys who thought the economy would crash when he got elected, and nuclear war was immanent. These are the same guys who pushed a hoax about Russian collusion for years. It turns out, they don’t know what’s best, or even likely.

That’s the sort of sleaze that got Trump elected in the first place. These are the same guys who thought the economy would crash when he got elected, and nuclear war was immanent. These are the same guys who pushed a hoax about Russian collusion for years. It turns out, they don’t know what’s best, or even likely. — NOS4A2

We certainly know more about Trump now that he's been in office awhile. We know that his "fire and fury" comments are B.S., and that he's committed to isolationism. He threatens war, but won't follow through on those threats. Not that I want him to, but it's become obvious his threats are empty. Reminds me of a woman I know who tried to get her kids to behave by making threats, but never following through on those threats. 2 of the children are now in prison.

I have no problem giving Trump credit for signing Paul Ryan's tax cut plan into law, and that this boosted the economy in the short term. But this put the U.S. on a trajectory of unsustainable deficits. Taxes WILL have to be raised sooner or later, and when they do - this temporary period of relative prosperity will be offset by the negative impact we will experience at that time. Given the short-term focus of voters, it will be ironic that the future President who is forced to raise taxes will be blamed for the negative impact.

It's funny how Trump supporters echo Trump's words ("hoax about Russian collusion"), and ignore what Trump did that looked suspicious. There is zero evidence of a "hoax", but what the heck - Trump calls it a hoax, and that's good enough for them. Critical thinking doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

These are the same guys who pushed a hoax about Russian collusion for years. — NOS4A2

What hoax nose4?

What hoax nose4? — tim wood

The hoax that Trump told him exists/existed.

It's interesting that he says Trump's words don't matter, and yet he believes whatever words Trump speaks.

You're writing sharp stuff, Relativist, keep it up! Nose4 shares with Trump a certain negative quality that affects the rest of us: that nothing he writes can be taken at face value - nothing at all. This doesn't mean he cannot make sense; rather it means that his intentions don't match his words - because he's a troll and a liar. More-or-less like his hero. The evidence of same can be found back in this thread.

! Nose4 shares with Trump a certain negative quality that affects the rest of us: that nothing he writes can be taken at face value - nothing at all. — tim wood

Nobody should engage with trump trolls.

We certainly know more about Trump now that he's been in office awhile. We know that his "fire and fury" comments are B.S., and that he's committed to isolationism. He threatens war, but won't follow through on those threats. Not that I want him to, but it's become obvious his threats are empty. Reminds me of a woman I know who tried to get her kids to behave by making threats, but never following through on those threats. 2 of the children are now in prison.

I have no problem giving Trump credit for signing Paul Ryan's tax cut plan into law, and that this boosted the economy in the short term. But this put the U.S. on a trajectory of unsustainable deficits. Taxes WILL have to be raised sooner or later, and when they do - this temporary period of relative prosperity will be offset by the negative impact we will experience at that time. Given the short-term focus of voters, it will be ironic that the future President who is forced to raise taxes will be blamed for the negative impact.

It's funny how Trump supporters echo Trump's words ("hoax about Russian collusion"), and ignore what Trump did that looked suspicious. There is zero evidence of a "hoax", but what the heck - Trump calls it a hoax, and that's good enough for them. Critical thinking doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

Yeah all that stuff about Trump losing the election, nuclear war, economic collapse, the death of NATO, the second-coming of Hitler, Russian collusion, fascism—it was all the failed prophecies of people who thought they knew better. Now it’s deficits and future presidents raising taxes and empty threats. Just what we need: more empty fortune-telling.

The fear mongering has become as limp as a wagging finger. You all have been exposed and history will not look kind on it.

what? You want him reelected? If he survives impeachment procedures it means in the eye of the public that he didn't do it. — Benkei

I think this is an extremely wrong approach. In terms of historical precedence, the Watergate senate hearing began with only 19% of the public supporting Nixon's removal from office, and ended at 59%, a year later by the time he resigned from office. Congressional hearings enable new evidence and scandals to be uncovered, and while this will not likely affect Trump's most zealous supporters (only a recession might do that), it will highlight the crimes of Trump and his unsuitability in the office. And when the GOP controlled Senate vetoes his impeachment the GOP will own Trump's crimes as well and will be culpable for the continued crimes he and his administration commit.

And in terms of maintaining some semblance of respectability and honor it's simply the principle of the matter to hold the presidency accountable for crimes while in office, and this principle shouldn't be sacrificed at the very theoretical and uncertain proposition that it will lead to his re-election.

Yeah all that stuff about Trump losing the election, nuclear war, economic collapse, the death of NATO, the second-coming of Hitler, Russian collusion, fascism—it was all the failed prophecies of people who thought they knew better. — NOS4A2

A lot of different people have made a variety of hyperbolic remarks about Trump, and you lump them all together into one boogeyman. Let's get real and focus on me.

I did not predict economic collapse nor the death of NATO. I just thought the guy was stupid. I prophesied a guy who thought running the country was just like running a company. I thought he lacked ethics. He didn't treat his wives ethically (cheating on each) and he didn't run his company ethically (reneging on contracts; avoiding debts through bankruptcies). He lacked the ability to think critically (birtherism), he would do anything to win, and he thought it would all be easy. I did make one specific prediction: Mexico would never pay for a wall.

It's true that I didn't expect him to win. But save for that one error of prediction, Trump has behaved like the idiot I thought he was.

Oh yes, one other error: I was surprised that his minions would be blind to all his idiocy. No, I did not expect there to be so many like you.

Now it’s deficits and future presidents raising taxes and empty threats. Just what we need: more empty fortune-telling.

If you think these deficits will take care of themselves, you are delusional.

If he survives impeachment procedures it means in the eye of the public that he didn't do it. — Benkei

OJ was acquitted, but it didn't change anyone's mind about him.

It is possible you're right, but it is also possible that failure to indict (which is what impeachment is) will result in people thinking he's innocent. There's no way to know which is optimal, so why not err on the side of doing what's right?

Well I’m talking about a radical, reactionary group of media-soaked elites and celebrities with their obsequious base crying wolf for the past few years on twitter. These people would rather bring the country to ruin than to see the president succeed. If you’re not a part of that group then I’m glad.

Right, he’s an idiotic, unethical, libertine with a foul mouth. He’s full of bluster and arrogance. He’s a reality tv show host. He eats Big Macs and overdone steaks with ketchup. What is this but sanctimony and snobbery? What is this but the finger-wagging of our self-anointed moral superiors? I don’t buy it.

These people would rather bring the country to ruin than to see the president succeed. — NOS4A2

These people see Trump’s policies as terrible for the country so believe that him “succeeding” would ruin the country, just as I’m sure many Trump supporters would believe the same about Bernie.

Trump is immune to scandals. If you throw shit at shit, it still looks the same.

Moreover, the idea the media landscape of watergate is the same as now seems to me too optimistic. You're not going to break through the outrage media and have them report negatively on Trump. It doesn't sell. Him working with the ruskies is business smarts, you see?

Why do you believe waiting with impeachment until possibly after the elections is wrong? If he's reelected you still get a chance.

I didn't realize that was what you were advocating. I'd be OK with delaying an impeachment vote until then, but I think they should hold impeachment hearings as soon as possible.

Trump, so far, is immune to the consequences of scandals but not to the public perception of scandal. The larger strategy at play here is for the impeachment process to highlight known and uncover additional crimes, and when the GOP lead Senate vetoes his impeachment, not only will the party be culpable in protecting him, but democrats running for office can leverage this against opponents in 2020 races.

You assume people care. You do, other Democrats do. The average Republican clearly doesn't because anything is better than a Democrat. They'd have voted in a rabbid homosexual dingo as long as he's not a Democrat. If they did care, he'd never gotten elected in the first place.

You're also assuming there will be fair and balanced reporting by Fox and Bteibart. So I guess you'll feel really good about it all with your buddies that already think as you do but it's not an election strategy. Especially since running a platform on "I'm not as bad as Trump" isn't exactly inspiring.

If the Democrats are incapable of crossing the divide and finding neutral ground and understanding with the typical Trump voter, it will just be more of the tribal "I'll never vote for a Democrat/Republican" that we've seen for decades now.

What crimes would those be?

What crimes would those be? — NOS4A2

To start, he's an unindicted co-conspirator in the charges against Michael Cohen for campaign finance law violations.

That may not be entirely true:

No, Trump isn’t Teflon. Scandals lower his approval among Republicans — if they see the news

They may disapprove but will it change their voting behaviour? I don't think so.

No, he has not been convicted of any crimes. Trump has not even been accused by a grand jury indictment of anything, let alone being a co-conspirator of a crime.