Better still to recognise the truth of your first sentence. If you apply it to the second, you may see that you can't recognise a fantasy, nor tell fantasy from 'reality'. That is my point. — Pattern-chaser

I do recognize the truth of my sentence, or I would not have written it.

The rest of what you said makes no sense to me as I recognize that the condemnation of humanity is a lie and also have a good grasp of the real and the imaginary.

Regards
DL

I [...] have a good grasp of the real and the imaginary. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How? Don't just say the truth; accept it! Here it is again, for your consideration:

True that reality is a collective hunch. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How? — Pattern-chaser

By applying logic and reason of course.

That is how you do it as well. No?

Regards
DL

You grasp Objective Reality by logic and reason? Lucky this topic concerns the supernatural, then. You are clearly much loved by the Gods, to have given you such power. Power they withhold from all other men.

You grasp Objective Reality by logic and reason? Lucky this topic concerns the supernatural, then. You are clearly much loved by the Gods, to have given you such power. Power they withhold from all other men. — Pattern-chaser

Why did you ignore my question and returned with this garbage instead?

You seem to want a one way conversation and are tripping over your own tongue with foolishness.

Regards
DL

Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You’ll need to explain that to me.

Nothing that I know of, other than personal renderings or hear say, has ever been produced or provide to show the existence of a supernatural realm or entities. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Wouldn't physical evidence of the supernatural prove it's physical and therefore natural?

If there is no supernatural god, should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide instead of idolizing imaginary supernatural gods that are demonstrably less moral than humans? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Does the name Stephan Hoeller mean anything to you?

If there is no supernatural god, should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide instead of idolizing imaginary supernatural gods that are demonstrably less moral than humans? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No supernatural gods, no evidence, nothing, but they are ‘demonstrably’ less moral than humans?

Wouldn't physical evidence of the supernatural prove it's physical and therefore natural? — Hanover

Indeed it would. :smile: :up: Where is the evidence, then? Where have you put it? :wink:

No supernatural gods, no evidence, nothing, but they are ‘demonstrably' less moral than humans? — Brett

:smile:

Their belief is costing you your hard earned dollars.
Do you like to pay for someone else's fantasy? — Gnostic Christian Bishop
You’ll need to explain that to me. — Brett

The tax exempt and tax breaks that religion enjoy is in the 80 billon a year range in the U.S alone.

What they save and keep has to be made up by the general public otherwise that 80 odd billion would cause a deficit.

You and I are members of the general public and like it or not, we are both subsidizing religions though/with our tax cash.

Regards
DL

Wouldn't physical evidence of the supernatural prove it's physical and therefore natural? — Hanover

No. If I had supernatural powers, nothing would stop me from popping in and out of other dimensions and being able to interact with them.

Even Yahweh killed an animal to make a garment for A & E. Not that that myth is real.

Just appearing in a new dimension would displace things at the sub atomic level. I guess as no supernatural entity has stuck around long enough for us to know.

Regards
DL

Does the name Stephan Hoeller mean anything to you? — Wayfarer

Yes. I have listened to some of his work and agree with a lot of it. Not all though, although I cannot recall what I did not agree with him on.

Regards
DL

No supernatural gods, no evidence, nothing, but they are ‘demonstrably’ less moral than humans? — Brett

Atta boy/man.

Regards
DL

The tax exempt and tax breaks that religion enjoy is in the 80 billon a year range in the U.S alone.

What they save and keep has to be made up by the general public otherwise that 80 odd billion would cause a deficit.

You and I are members of the general public and like it or not, we are both subsidizing religions though/with our tax cash. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Your using religious institutions as a way to disparage the idea of the supernatural.

So your position seems to be not just that you wonder if belief in the supernatural is an intelligent persons game, but that it’s something you dislike, or don’t believe in. So now it’s not about whether it’s intelligent to believe in the supernatural but about your subjective opinion on religion. Well, who cares?

Believer or not, you are paying for lying clergy to continue lying. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Tax exemption is not the same as me paying for “lying clergy”. How am I paying if there was no money in the first place. That’s like saying those in the top tax bracket stole millions because the government didn’t increase their tax rate. And once again your referring to institutions not individuals. Obviously institutions have taken advantage of people, but all institutions tend to do that, that seems to be the nature of institutions. Your idea seems to be that institutions came first then came belief.

Is belief in the supernatural an intelligent person’s game?

No, it's not. There would need to be some evidence, which at this point is only faith-based.

The interesting part is that some people consider elements of the supernatural as natural, necessary, and existing truly. These are called "religious people". To them god-worship is worshipping a real figure head, it is a natural (i.e. existing fullly in the rational reality) being. It exists (god exists) according to the religious, in other spheres of existence, for lack of a better term; that is also given.

Funny folks, the faithful.

Still better to not add to the objective reality by adding a fantasy that one must believe in to be saved. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How? — Pattern-chaser


By applying logic and reason of course. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You grasp Objective Reality by logic and reason? Lucky this topic concerns the supernatural, then. You are clearly much loved by the Gods, to have given you such power. Power they withhold from all other men. — Pattern-chaser

Why did you ignore my question and returned with this garbage instead? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Just responding in kind, young friend.

Live long and prosper!

Well, who cares? — Brett

Gays, women, and all others who are discriminated against without a just cause.

All who hate inquisitions and jihads, be they used to kill or to just try to prevent freedom of thought and religion.

If that is not you. then your morals suck and your not worth my time.

My subjective view of the mainstream supernatural based religions is that they are garbage and based on lies and a vile genocidal son murdering prick of a god. This has people calling an evil god good.

What is your subjective view?

Regards
DL

Funny folks, the faithful. — god must be atheist

In thinking, true, in actions, I would not use the term funny.
Given that they have grown by inquisitions and jihads, I would say they are immoral and deadly when given power.

Regards
DL

Just responding in kind, young friend.

Live long and prosper! — Pattern-chaser

FYPOV, that made sense old friend.

Regards
DL

No, you don't understand. I hate sanctimonious humans and their artificial moralities. Badgers eating baby bunnies shows how amoral the natural, non-human world is. Are you better than the natural, non-human world?

Are you better than the natural, non-human world? — yupamiralda

We are the top predator so the rest of the non-human world would certainly say yes, as they would like to be the top predator.

For all I know, they would also like to have our mental/intelligence capability.

Do you not think yourself better than a chimp at a keyboard?
Would you risk your life to save one?

Regards
DL

Does the name Stephan Hoeller mean anything to you?
— Wayfarer

Yes. I have listened to some of his work and agree with a lot of it. Not all though, although I cannot recall what I did not agree with him on. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Well, he’s a bona fide Gnostic Christian Bishop, but I don’t see anything in what you write which bears any resemblance. Gnosticism is certainly opposed to Christian orthodoxy, but it’s still a religious philosophy. Whereas all I see in your posts is hostility to anything religious, and little philosophical argument.

hey gnostic, I wanted to add that I personally don't see the clergy as confolk (or mal-intentioned in general) , but misguided themselves, with a strong passion to continue a work they see as bigger than themselves and which has urged them to accept truths via faith instead of science.
can a misguided individual still act intelligently? in my opinion, yes, insofar as any of us do when we leverage axiomatic logic in our reasoning. but to be honest, it is seems ignorant of me to judge their intellectual capacity, I just haven't experience their perspectives personally.

should we not seek a human leader or spiritual guide — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I can’t help thinking that in the past this has led to some pretty tragic situations.

Well, who cares?
— Brett

Gays, women, and all others who are discriminated against without a just cause. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I wasn’t saying who cares if the supernatural exists, I said who cares about your subjective view on religion. What it amounts to is nothing more than a belief?

I wouldn't say intelligent person. Someone who actually believes in a lie of such improbably fantastical nature would be termed much more aptly as delusional than intelligent perse. Creative, perhaps, but delusional all the same.

A person who has no faith in the supernatural has too much faith in Science.... RMC

I disagree. I doubt science, with its limits, primitiveness and cultural factors. But that is a lot different than believing in a delusion like the existence of God/gods as the religions fantasize.

We have no idea how close we are, knowledge wise, to all that can be known and what can be done. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You basically just agreed with me. Science does not disagree with what he said. Nor does it agree. It remains agnostic.

Speculative nonsense is all we can have of what we do not know, especially of the supernatural. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Actually we can have somewhat justified beliefs about things we do not know. It is not binary, even in science. There are degrees of evidence and models that we use that imply things that we have not yet demonstrated, and then individuals can know things that they cannot prove to others, and more.