• TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Axiom 6 (On Reason and Teleology):

    In the process of thinking and acting, the reason for our thinking and acting, which is to obtain our intended conceptual destination in thought or action, is determined prior to or at the moment of, the substantiation of our will to think or act, that is to say that the final cause of our thinking, which is, as previously mentioned, the reason and intended conceptual destination of our thinking or acting, is conceptually contained as a subset within its first cause [1], our will to think or act (final cause ∈ first cause). In essence, that which has a final cause necessarily has a first cause [2], and that which has a first cause isn’t bounded by or contingent upon any prior material cause, thus the mere existence of a single first cause guarantees that first causes exist, absolutely, for it is impossible to conceive of a first cause coming into being in-between two purely physical material causes in an infinite and deterministic chain of material causes and effects. Fundamentally speaking, the universe has a beginning and a sufficiently reasoned reason for existing as opposed to not existing, and a sufficiently reasoned reason for existing in one form as opposed to another [3]; and nothing comes into existence without there being a greater reason for its existence than for its non-existence. [4] And anyone who asserts that there is no reason or cause for the existence of things either has no cause or reason for asserting this, or he has. In the first case, his assertion is no truer than its converse; and in the second, he establishes by his very assertion the fact that there are causes or reasons for the existences of things. [5]

    Footnotes:

    [1] Definition first cause: I define a first cause as the reason for the existence of a thing. A first cause is a cause which has the cause or reason for its existence in the set which immediately precedes it and is thus directly related to it in its set Holarchy, and not in something external to itself, or rather, disjunctively related to it. All first causes have their origin in something both existent and non-physical (i.e. non-localized and unchanging potentiality), and not in something physical (i.e. a changing, localized actuality), which is the case for all physical material causes; that is to say that all first causes are born of memory by means of will and imagination, and that the beginning and end of all causal chains lies in memory. Furthermore, the mere existence of a single first cause guarantees that the eternal chain of physical causation which supports materialism and determinism as logical metaphysical constructs, is non-existent, because not only is the deterministic chain of causality not eternal, but is broken all the time by all beings that possess a subjective will, and therefore must be non-existent in the absolute sense of the word. That is to say that there can exist material causes, but that those material causes necessarily bridge first and final causes and there is no such thing as a blind change or motion which is happening for no reason whatsoever because all changes in some way or another, serve subjects.

    [2] Note: That which has a final cause necessarily has a first cause because all final causes are necessarily subsets of their first cause (final cause ∈ first cause), meaning that, by the Ontological Principle of Precedence, a final cause cannot exist without a first cause because all first causes necessarily precede their associated final causes in time, and also that, by the Ontological Principle of Duration, so long as the internal changes (material causes) which exist for the purpose of actualizing the final cause of a thing in relative space and time, exist, the concept of the final cause exists as well, and so does the concept of the first cause, that is, the reason for its existence, that is, the first set which distinguishes that thing from other things.

    [3] Leibniz's Principle of Sufficient Reason:
    -For every entity X, if X exists, then there is a sufficient explanation for why X exists.
    -For every event E, if E occurs, then there is a sufficient explanation for why E occurs.
    -For every proposition P, if P is true, then there is a sufficient explanation for why P is true.

    [4] Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, G.W. Leibniz’ Philosophical Essays, On Contingency, p. 29.
    [5] Sextus Empiricus, Adversus Physicos, p. 204.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    None of the above makes any reasonable sense because the false assumption is that there are “final causes”. There are no examples of final causes, yet we can label any moment we choose as the “final cause” or the “first cause” without any actual knowledge of some presumed (and ONLY presumed) absolute cause of reality.

    “Purpose” is a human perspective. We cannot talk of the ‘teleology’ of the universe unless we are simply referring to our intersubjective take in the universe - as some proposed ‘noumenal body’ we cannot in any sense REASONABLY talk about the teleology of the universe (to do so is anthropomorphism disguised as omnipresent insight).

    Fundamentally speaking we don’t know if the universe has a ‘beginning’ or not. We simply assume so because being finite beings we assume everything else has a start and end because that happens to be the manner in which we appreciate existence (or rather what ‘existence’ is to us as humans).

    We cannot be other than human and the universe isn’t human just because we only know if this concept via human conception.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    None of the above makes any reasonable sense because the false assumption is that there are “final causes”. There are no examples of final causes, yet we can label any moment we choose as the “final cause” or the “first cause” without any actual knowledge of some presumed (and ONLY presumed) absolute cause of reality.I like sushi

    It seems that you didn't read the whole thing, I gave an example of a final cause. Ironically, in saying that "there are no examples of final causes," you're contradicting yourself. Given your low IQ, it doesn't surprise me that you are able to do this and not even realize it.

    “Purpose” is a human perspective. We cannot talk of the ‘teleology’ of the universe unless we are simply referring to our intersubjective take in the universe - as some proposed ‘noumenal body’ we cannot in any sense REASONABLY talk about the teleology of the universe (to do so is anthropomorphism disguised as omnipresent insight).I like sushi

    rubbish.

    Fundamentally speaking we don’t know if the universe has a ‘beginning’ or not. We simply assume so because being finite beings we assume everything else has a start and end because that happens to be the manner in which we appreciate existence (or rather what ‘existence’ is to us as humans).I like sushi

    any why not? Isn't the answer obvious, how is it that you haven't figured it out yet? don't you realize that if the universe has no beginning, that all objects that come into being have causal chains that extend backs indefinitely into the past, and then, after clinking and clanking for an eternity, produce a physical object that goes into and out of being in a blink of an eye in comparison. 'nobody knows if the world has a beginning' says the fool, who thinks that the former is a 'logical possibility.'

    We cannot be other than human and the universe isn’t human just because we only know if this concept via human conception.I like sushi

    the law of identity and non-contradiction extend backwards into the past indefinitely, and thus so can our minds; meaning that the secrets of existence and the universe can be known. if one can understand the fundamental laws of logic and at least one absolute truth, they can deduce many more from it, and solve the riddle of existence. but firstly, one must not, as you seem to do, take the most skeptical position because they think its cool.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Mixing mysticism with logic doesn’t work. Mysticism is illogical. If it wasn’t it’d be called logic not mysticism.

    “Rubbish” is not an argument against what I said.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Mixing mysticism with logic doesn’t work. Mysticism is illogical. If it wasn’t it’d be called logic not mysticism.I like sushi

    and why is that? because there is no evidence that mind cannot exist apart from matter, yet materialists still continue to assert that it cannot anyways, and then the mistakes of those that we trust extend their influence into the minds of the mindless masses (that’s you) and cause them to mistake assumptions for absolute truths?
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Whether or not we can have a logical interpretation of mystical writing or a mystical interpretation of logic is neither here nor there.

    I think it is disingenuous to present a logical argument based on mystical axioms. Mystical axioms, are definition, dubious. Therefore any logical argument put forward can never be a sound argument if based on mystical assumptions.

    To put this more simplistically our “axioms” are mystical propositions. The problem of inference is an inescapable problem; yet the mystic isn’t concerned with this in the slightest and so shouldn’t dress their mystical ideas in a logical framework and expect applause for the monstrosity they produce.

    I’m not against mysticism at all. I think it is an extremely creative ground for play. Its use only ever lies in what it can reveal in a pragmatic form - otherwise it is no more than pure fantasy. The richness of mysticism is due to how it can spark into life a creative force that manifests something of use. There is no logical truth in mysticism though.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    I see a bunch of claims based on opinion but no rational arguments based on empirical truths of fact or truths of reason. this is not how I operate, I don’t deal with opinions, only logical arguments. so if you cannot provide rational counterarguments, you might as well go elsewhere and pander your dogshit opinions to someone else because I don’t want to hear them. if you want to argue, quote my arguments in totality from the post and use reasons and logic to refute them.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    This is not a logical position:

    Fundamentally speaking, the universe has a beginning and a sufficiently reasoned reason for existing as opposed to not existing, and a sufficiently reasoned reason for existing in one form as opposed to another

    I put forward my reasoning which you called ‘rubbish’. What is “sufficient reason” and who/what is doing the reasoning?

    Maybe you think it rational to disentangle the “why?” from the “how?”. I find it to be a useful distinction for conducting scientific investigation, but I’m not entirely sure what use there is to view the “why?” in some proposed separation? Meaning science deals with the “how?” rather than approaching the “why?” very often. There is always a grain of “why?” embedded for sure! I just don’t see how we can apply methodology of asking “why?” with the same intensity as we do when asking “how?” - especially in the application of logic.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    This has holes too:

    And anyone who asserts that there is no reason or cause for the existence of things either has no cause or reason for asserting this, or he has. In the first case, his assertion is no truer than its converse; and in the second, he establishes by his very assertion the fact that there are causes or reasons for the existences of things.

    Ignorance is no refutation. Not knowing is a requirement of questioning. We can assume cause and reason. We can explicitly work in limited sets - logic being one. A valid logical argument doesn’t necessarily make it useful (except in a negative sense).

    Anyone who either asserts there is no reason or cause is in the same illogical frame as anyone asserting that there IS a reason or cause. Both are sound within a finite reach though. Beyond experience and comprehension we are limited in our estimates.

    That is all I am saying - you may mean the same but you’ve not stated it.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    In the process of thinking and acting, the reason for our thinking and acting, which is to obtain our intended conceptual destination in thought or action,TheGreatArcanum

    I like to put these things on pause as soon as we say something questionable, and this is definitely questionable.

    The reason for thinking and acting often has nothing to do with a "conceptual destination." So we shouldn't make this statement as if it's something universally applicable.

    It seems that you didn't read the whole thing,TheGreatArcanum

    Me either. Again, I hit "pause" as soon as we say something questionable. Let's fix it so it's okay from the start. You don't want me to just ignore/gloss over problems, do you? (Why would you want that if you do?)
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    there’s nothing controversial said here. It only seems so because you guys study the world and the words of others and not yourselves.

    in the act of willing to move your arm to grab a cup and then drink out of it, for example; when you will to grab the cup and drink out of it, the final cause ‘to drink’ is decided at the same time or before you will to move your arm, the first cause, which is enacted for the purpose of achieving the final cause, to drink, and is a conversion of potentiality to actuality in mind.

    are there any intelligent humans on this forum? where are they!? how come the only two people I’ve interacted with are I like sushi and Terrapig, where are the philosophers at? this is a philosophy forum, is it not? @baden
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    So first, "we shouldn't make this statement as if it's something universally applicable" doesn't imply that it's never applicable. In other words, an example of it being applicable wouldn't suffice to make a universal statement.

    Secondly, and I'll leave it at this for the moment, because it's best if we tackle just one thing at a time, "to drink" isn't necessarily a conceptual "destination" is it?
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    Considering that the footnotes are longer than the main body of text you’re lucky to get ANY kind of response.

    Note: the constant insults and arrogance don’t exactly encourage others to respond either.
  • Josh Alfred
    226
    I have written on the nature of universal "cause and effect/teleology" in my book, "On Being and Consciousness." I hadn't read much of Leibniz before, but have been inspired to do so because of the content posted here. In my second edition I may have to add some of these ideas to the book for they speak of sufficient reason much more than I have done with my own contemplation.

    Secondly, I didn't see much of inquiry here. Did you have questions about this philosophy or were you just putting it up looking for counter statements?
  • Shamshir
    855
    And anyone who asserts that there is no reason or cause for the existence of things either has no cause or reason for asserting this, or he has. In the first case, his assertion is no truer than its converse;TheGreatArcanum
    I have a question.

    Isn't the one who doesn't have cause or reason for his assertion, his assertion being that there isn't cause or reason for things, proving his assertion by example?
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Isn't the one who doesn't have cause or reason for his assertion, his assertion being that there isn't cause or reason for things, proving his assertion by example?Shamshir

    one can’t speak without having a reason for speaking, nor speak on behalf of a particular position without doing so.
  • Shamshir
    855
    one can’t speak without having a reason for speaking, nor speak on behalf of a particular position without doing so.TheGreatArcanum
    Sure one can. It's called making noise, innit?
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    So first, "we shouldn't make this statement as if it's something universally applicable" doesn't imply that it's never applicable. In other words, an example of it being applicable wouldn't suffice to make a universal statement.Terrapin Station

    yes we should make it universally applicable. because if there exists a single first cause, in any sense of the word, the physical chain of causation which supports hard-determinism is non-existent and a first cause exists, and this is because a first cause cannot exist in-between two physical causes (please read the footnotes, you’re just waisting time again and embarrassing yourself, again)

    Secondly, and I'll leave it at this for the moment, because it's best if we tackle just one thing at a time, "to drink" isn't necessarily a conceptual "destination" is it?Terrapin Station

    yes, acting necessities thinking and thinking involves.cocnepts, not thinking I’m the sense of intellectualizing, but thinking in terms of intuition. to grab the glass and bring it to my mouth for drinking, I just intuit the process as a whole before or at the moment of willing to do it. this intuition of a concept or set of concepts, acts as the causeless cause for the action.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    thank you for responding Josh,

    i know how hard it is to write a book because I’ve been writing one for about two to three years now, so much respect to you for writing one.

    in terms of the Will, I’m not sure if anyone has conceived of the will as a first and final cause before, so these might be my original ideas. I am looking to have my axioms and principles section published soon, so make sure you remember me when citing.

    Secondly, I didn't see much of inquiry here. Did you have questions about this philosophy or were you just putting it up looking for counter statements?Josh Alfred

    I’m looking for someone to see something that I don’t see. I want someone educated to look at it from a different perspective and tell me if they see flaws. Unfortunately, the dunces of the forums, sushi and terrapin cant help but ruin my posts with their nonsensical responses. never once have either one of them posted anything helpful. it annoys me to see only them commenting on my posts.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    because if there exists a single first cause, in any sense of the word, the physical chain of causation which supports hard-determinism is non-existentTheGreatArcanum

    So once again, in the spirit of pausing when something questionable is said, what would any support for that statement be?
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Sure one can. It's called making noise, innit?Shamshir

    you’d be making noise with intention of annoying someone, or making noises for the purpose of making noise, or maybe, for the purpose of bringing yourself pleasure, or proving to someone that you don’t need a reason for doing someone which is in itself a reason.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    So once again, in the spirit of pausing when something questionable is said, what would any support for that statement be?Terrapin Station

    you have so understand the nature of materialism, which suggest that the causal chain is without beginning and without end and without disruption, so the existence of a first cause is impossible. the existence of a final cause necessitates a first cause, meaning that a first cause exists within the causal chain, which makes it non-existent as a whole. how do you not get this? you really f’ing annoy me, I’ve wasted so much time explaining concepts to you but they’ve alll went over your head everytime, same with this one, and this is because you refuse to change your own opinion when presented with facts that contradict it. I have no time for people like this.
  • Shamshir
    855
    making noises for the purpose of making noiseTheGreatArcanum
    Which is equal to having no purpose.

    proving to someone that you don’t need a reason for doing someone which is in itself a reasonTheGreatArcanum
    Is it? Or is it just babble? Am I trying to accomplish something, or just mindlessly chattering away whatever comes to mind, because why not? Maybe both!
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    you have so understand the nature of materialism, which suggest that the causal chain is without beginning and without end and without disruption,TheGreatArcanum

    Where are you getting this from? Materialism only posits that the world is solely comprised of material (and (dynamic) relations of material). Materialists can have any view of "first causes," causality in general, etc.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Where are you getting this from? Materialism only posits that the world is solely comprised of material (and (dynamic) relations of material). Materialists can have any view of "first causes," causality in general, etc.Terrapin Station

    a first cause has its final cause contained within itself and is therefore teleological, meaning that they are presupposed by reason and thereby intention of mind; to be a materialist and a person who believes that there exists a first cause is to be a materialist that contradicts oneself and doesn't know it; a first cause isn't born out of physicality, but the lack thereof, so if a materialist thinks that there are first causes he is conceding to the existing of a non-spatial aspect to existence and therefore that the all isn't physical. again, all of this information is contained within the original post. go read it in its totality and then ask questions if you have questions, don't ask questions before you've read the post entirely because they may be answered by it.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Which is equal to having no purpose.Shamshir

    making noises for the purpose of making noises has a purpose, that of making noise. this is quite clear and unambiguous.
  • Shamshir
    855
    making noises for the purpose of making noisesTheGreatArcanum
    Is just making noises.

    Although one may say the purpose of an act is the act, thus it has a purpose; it's equally valid, by the same logic, that the act happening for its own sake, just happened, with no purpose in mind - not even itself. It just happened, for no reason!

    Why? Why not?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    a first cause isn't born out of physicality, but the lack thereof,TheGreatArcanum

    Which we'd think because?
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Which we'd think because?Terrapin Station

    its true by definition.
  • TheGreatArcanum
    298
    Why? Why not?Shamshir

    if it involves the will, it's teleological. the will cannot be instantiated without reason, that reason can be in itself. 'i.e. making noises for the purpose of making noises' but really in this context, you're making noises to prove to yourself that you can will without reason, but then that's a reason for willing.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    If that's all we're doing, couldn't we define it another way?
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