As for my thoughts about OP, It's not interesting. Most of the posters on this thread are just really immature. StreetlightX @Banno @christian2017 @Maw and maybe I missed a few are guilty of the same thing as OP which is taking an extremely complicated and large thing like a religion being followed by a billion people or the West and taking a sliver of truth as using that to create venomous generalisations. — Judaka

Yes, although I didn't realize Banno does it too. What's odd is that it's a heavily emotional thing, but robotic at the same time. I don't think the people who do it fully realize they're doing it.

:up: I agree with you.

I don't even know what to say before I start dealing with your post let's look back at how we got here.

Othering.

They are not us. We don't do this shit.

That's the PM's excuse for Australia producing a nationalistic terrorist.

And so he does not have to admit his culpability in the crime, despite years of presenting the sort of thing found in the OP here. — Banno

You can't talk to me about how ignorant I am for not assuming your dislike of Morrison was caused by your little list when the origin of this conversation came from a post which is explicitly saying the problem with Morrison is similar to what's in OP, which is clearly nothing like your list and can be generally summarised as anti-Islamic sentiment.

You backed Banno's claim and without adding any nuance to the differences between his perspective and your own.

Oh, and also, our PM, Scott Morrison, is a shitbag enabler who is most certainly culpable - though not alone - for fostering the kind of environment in which the shooter became who he is — StreetlightX

But okay, I am not interested in a discussion on Morrison, you are right that I am ignorant about politics, mainly because I don't care much about it.

My position is that Australia is riven with all kind of systemic and cultural issues such as rape, domestic violence, murderous treatment of minorities and immigrants and all the rest of it. Your word salad of a translation of this is senseless and doesn't even get the subject of the sentence right (hint: it's 'Australia'), let alone anything else. Get the grammar right and maybe there's a discussion to be had. — StreetlightX

What do you think the relationship between Australian culture and rape/domestic violence is?

The Muslim jihadists continue to make the claim that they are morally superior to the West. — Ilya B Shambat

The West has done both historically and presently exactly the same.

but on the basis of values and institutions that actually make the West superior to the Muslims. — Ilya B Shambat

So you are going to make an argument on the west supremacy, got it!

The West does not have people throwing sulfuric acid into girls' faces for going to school. — Ilya B Shambat

Sure they do:

“Punish a Muslim Day” started off last month, with a number of anonymous letters arriving at the homes of Muslims in the north of England, the Midlands and east London. Four Muslim MPs received it, including at least one copy being received in parliament, leading to a security alert. The letter boasted of horrific “rewards”, encouraging people to carry out attacks on Muslims, including torture, burning down mosques and throwing acid in Muslims’ faces."

Source:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/04/love-a-muslim-day-counter-islamophobia

The West has free speech. — Ilya B Shambat

That is debatable, especially in America considering "free speech advocates believe free speech is only extended to people of a certain mindset, and in these cases usually people who are white, and right-wing conservative. That is based on social conversation, but lawfully yes we have "decreed speech" but we do not have absolute free speech. That means in an at-will state I can still get fired for expressing my "free views" on social media.

The West has women's rights. — Ilya B Shambat

Yet, women still suffer from inequality in the work force as well as suffering socially due to rape culture, and other elements of toxic patriarchy.

The West has a lot of people working around the globe to extend to others development, opportunity and education. — Ilya B Shambat

Yes. Telling people of the world how to live the "correct way" in accordance to how it is done here in the western world. Yes, the west has done a lot, but it also has done a lot to usurp communities that were once peaceful.

And that, instead of practicing a defensive posture or some sort of religious me-tooism — Ilya B Shambat

You just ruined your argument with the bold remark.

The West's moral superiority comes from free speech. It comes from democracy. — Ilya B Shambat

We are not entirely democratic because everything in the west is not completely equal. This is why civil rights continues to become a relevant issue because western society is still continuing to evolve itself. When you talk about terms of superiority and inferiority you open up Pandora's box to critique aspects of western powers.

Further, the Muslim people owe a lot to America and the rest of the West. If not for the Western democracies, the Middle East as well as the rest of the world would be practicing Communism; and that means that they would not be able to practice Islam at all. — Ilya B Shambat

This is the same argument racist whites like to impart to African-Americans: "You owe us for slavery because if it wasn't for us, you'd be living in mud huts." Your comment is not only bigoted but illogical, but continue.

The West is morally superior to the Islamic world. And it is time that more people say so outright. — Ilya B Shambat

Your whole entire argument is not only bigoted, but juvenile and not even put together to convince me philosophically to think otherwise.

My own 2 cents is that this dumb as fuck thread should be closed. Go to 4chan or some shit to spew this Islamophobic stupidity, not here. — Maw

This.

This is a philosophy forum and I would at least expect someone to construct a philosophical argument at least partially academic for their approach to the subject. But no, this is the ramblings of some nut job who most likely will go to a mosque and kill another 50 people.

The Muslim jihadists continue to make the claim that they are morally superior to the West. It is time that this claim be addressed [...] on the basis of values and institutions that actually make the West superior to the Muslims. — Ilya B Shambat

Is this the right approach, I wonder? You seem to be replacing one claim of superiority with another, opposing, claim. I rather suspect neither POV can be justified, perhaps because neither of them is correct? :chin:

Yet you seldom hear anyone referring to the fact that both Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions. — ssu

You seldomly don't hear (from Christians) that Islam and Christianity are Abrahamic religions you mean.

a few are guilty of the same thing as OP which is taking an extremely complicated and large thing like a religion being followed by a billion people or the West and taking a sliver of truth as using that to create venomous generalisations. I call this problem an issue of interpretative relevance and the named people don't even attempt to be balanced or nuanced, it's shameful. — Judaka

I agree. I largely think some of the posters on this forum are very young, and if they're not young, then they're either:

A) A college dropout failure

B) Never went to college

C) Live in a basement with underdeveloped social skills.

I think people need to stop watching Faux news for their understanding of reality.

Live in a basement with underdeveloped social skills — Anaxagoras

Are you saying that Banno, StreetlightX, and Maw all live in the same basement? Or separate ones?

The OP, which is clearly nothing like your list and can be generally summarised as anti-Islamic sentiment. — Judaka

The OP is exactly like 'my list'. It's an effort to encourage a cultural and religious pissing contest where a full one sixth of the human population is declared inferior on the back of a destructive caricature that feeds the very flames it decries. It's as bullshit as any claim my wanker of a PM has ever uttered.

What do you think the relationship between Australian culture and rape/domestic violence is? — Judaka

The latter exists preponderantly in the former. It's really not that complicated.

Are you saying that Banno, StreetlightX, and Maw all live in the same basement? Or separate ones? — frank

LOOL WTF?

You're the worst of the lot. Have you ever made a post on this forum which wasn't about racism, sexism or anti-Islamic sentiment?


Rape is a part of Australian culture? :lol:

The OP is exactly like 'my list'. It's an effort to encourage a cultural and religious pissing contest where a full one sixth of the human population is declared inferior — StreetlightX

Your interpretations are charming as always, isn't he arguing it's the religion and culture which is inferior and not every practitioner?

Even if Morrison was saying or encouraging others to say or think that Islam is an inferior culture and religion (isn't this covered by "disliking Islam" how did I get lambasted for that?) he still isn't culpable for an environment which creates mass murderers. He didn't incite violence, he didn't condone violence and you and others like you are just utilising the tragedy to increase the punch of the condemning of a practice you don't like.

Do I need to keep quiet any problems I have with any culture and religion? Banno said Christianity was a morally bankrupt religion while simultaneously blaming anti-Islamic sentiment for the Christchurch massacre, do you at least see the hypocrisy in that?

For all things that one or another person does wrong, the Western system has produced far better results than has the Muslim system. — Ilya B Shambat

I would agree that democratic rule is superior to theocratic rule. We really don't have current day Christian theocracies to use for comparison against the number of Muslim theocracies. The only current day Christian theocracy is Vatican City, but that serves more as a headquarters to the Catholic Church and there are no rank and file citizens with no affiliation to the Church.

The "Western system" is a secular system. A Muslim system, by definition, is not. If you're pointing out that Muslim nations allow their religious leaders too much authority, I would agree, but I would object as much to having Christian influence imposed upon me in a Western nation. Keep in mind though that this is an argument for secularism over theocracy, which I do agree with.

I think that those societies would do well to adopt Christianity instead of Islam. That way they will have social stability without it being based on a terrible ideology that, among other things, promises boys in heaven. — Ilya B Shambat

This says more than the OP by claiming that Christianity specifically (as opposed to "the West") is superior to Islam. I'd probably guess you're Christian from this statement. I happen to be Jewish, and I can't imagine it'd be a worthwhile conversation for me to tell you how Judaism is superior to Christianity, what with it's silly reliance upon a magical messiah that supposedly arose from the dead.

I'm going to further speculate that you're Catholic, which would then allow me to launch into an attack on the Catholic Church, just to show you how morally corrupt they are, which really arises out of a fairly absurd ideology that demands grown men repress all sexual desires. What I think is that you ought be Mormon actually, as the life expectancy and quality of life is far better in Utah than in Nevada, which I think owes itself to that strange breed of Christianity revolving around gold tablets or some other such nonsense that they practice so devoutly there.

Your interpretations are charming as always, isn't he arguing it's the religion and culture which is inferior and not every practitioner? — Judaka

You're naive in the extreme if you think a person's beliefs and ways of life are not intimately constitutive of who they are, and that comments on the former do not in anyway bear on the latter.

Even if Morrison was saying or encouraging others to say or think that Islam is an inferior culture and religion (isn't this covered by "disliking Islam" how did I get lambasted for that?) he still isn't culpable for an environment which creates mass murderers. He didn't incite violence, he didn't condone violence and you and others like you are just utilising the tragedy to increase the punch of the condemning of a practice you don't like. — Judaka

Correct, I am condemning the murder of 50 people and the conditions which lead to it, as should anyone who isn't a complete wanker. Which includes enablers like Morrison and his dog whistling fuckery. But of course, this isn't a conversation you're capable of having, having proudly flaunted your deliberate ignorance of politics, as though this was not a mark of deep shame. What you say about Morrison has no standing. You kicked your own stool away from yourself.

Do I need to keep quiet any problems I have with any culture and religion? — Judaka

Not at all. All religion should get fucked as far as I'm concerned, including Islam. The problem with the OP isn't that it 'has problems with a culture and religion'; it's that it conceptualizes them in ways so thin and shallow as to be not only useless but actively harmful. Anyone who wants to talk about religion and culture without at the same time talking economics, politics, and social conditions is a priori ruled out of having anything meaningful whatsoever to say. The OP presents a shallow story for piddling minds.

This is a philosophy forum and I would at least expect someone to construct a philosophical argument at least partially academic for their approach to the subject. But no, this is the ramblings of some nut job who most likely will go to a mosque and kill another 50 people. — Anaxagoras

Do you really think it's "most likely" our poster is a Christian terrorist, or is this post just more hyperbole devoid of philosophical or academic value?

I say this largely disagreeing with the OP, feeling it's really knee jerk reaction to well publicized accounts of Muslim terrorism on Western targets and the obvious observation that many Muslim nations are in undeveloped parts of the world. I think we can blame our poster for having an emotive and not fully nuanced view, but I think we shouldn't be dismissive of the question of whether there is something about Islam that has left its followers in nations centuries behind the West in so many areas of development. A woman's role in those societies, for example, is not at all acceptable to us in Western countries. We can't just shrug that off without accepting a problematic moral relativism.

My point here is that I agree with you that it's a waste of time to shout "My religion is better than yours!" and expect any change. I think it's also a waste of time to yell back at them calling them murderers. Our poster poses no threat to anyone.

You're naive in the extreme if you think a person's beliefs and ways of life are not intimately constitutive of who they are, and that comments on the former do not in anyway bear on the latter. — StreetlightX

Okay, but all the same, it's your own personal interpretation that it "bears on the latter" and you've interpreted how it does that for them and as usual in an uncharitable way. I disagree with the beliefs of many people but I don't use that as a basis to claim superiority over them. I disagree with the way of life of many people but I don't think those people are inferior to me. You are just being unreasonable to hurt those you disagree with, as usual.

Correct, I am condemning the murder of 50 people and the conditions which lead to it, as should anyone who isn't a complete wanker. Which includes enablers like Morrison and his dog whistling fuckery. But of course, this isn't a conversation you're capable of having, having proudly flaunted your deliberate ignorance of politics, as though this was not a mark of deep shame. What you say about Morrison has no standing. You kicked your own stool away from yourself. — StreetlightX

I'm satisfied that I know enough to vote my values, what's your list of great accomplishments? Decrying rape culture in Australia and showing up at a few far left rallies? I'm glad you're condemning the massacre, good on you, gold star. Stop using it politically and talking about conditions and causes without sufficient (or any) evidence.

You know what, you actually think there's a rape culture in Australia, I am done wasting my time talking to you. Fxdrake or whatever his name is, another mod on this forum is a similarly poor thinker who utilises unreasonable, hostile interpretations for political leverage, just like you. I can't help but think there is an explanation but maybe it's just a coincidence.

Not at all. All religion should get fucked as far as I'm concerned, including Islam. The problem with the OP isn't that it 'has problems with a culture and religion'; it's that it conceptualizes them in ways so thin and shallow as to be not only useless but actively harmful. Anyone who wants to talk about religion and culture without at the same time talking economics, politics, and social conditions is a priori ruled out of having anything meaningful whatsoever to say. The OP presents a shallow story for piddling minds. — StreetlightX

Well, at least we agree on something.

You know what, you actually think there's a rape culture in Australia, I am done wasting my time talking to you. Fxdrake or whatever his name is, another mod on this forum is a similarly poor thinker who utilises unreasonable, hostile interpretations for political leverage, just like you. I can't help but think there is an explanation but maybe it's just a coincidence. — Judaka

That's me! :D

You're the worst of the lot. Have you ever made a post on this forum which wasn't about racism, sexism or anti-Islamic sentiment? — Judaka

Really? Name several threads I've created talking about racism, and sexism? I'll wait...

But I'd tread carefully on speaking about who is worse because you're certainly not philosophical material when it comes to explaining and defending one's position.

Do you really think it's "most likely" our poster is a Christian terrorist, or is this post just more hyperbole devoid of philosophical or academic value? — Hanover

Terrorist no. But it is the type of sensationalist asinine approach to another faith that can develop extremist tendencies or attract others with extremist tendencies. This "we are better than you mentality" is the kind of element extremists especially those on the right side of politics love.

I say this largely disagreeing with the OP, feeling it's really knee jerk reaction to well publicized accounts of Muslim terrorism on Western targets and the obvious observation that many Muslim nations are in undeveloped parts of the world. — Hanover

Fine, but the sensationalism behind the approach using the construction of " I am better than you" argument is quite dull and repetitive. Unfortunately a lot of people very often conflate western ideals with U.S. American ideals (I have been guilty of this) and tend to impart the common uneducated misappropriate rant that Americans here often do.

but I think we shouldn't be dismissive of the question of whether there is something about Islam that has left its followers in nations centuries behind the West in so many areas of development. — Hanover

No, but the approach should have been less aggressive and more constructive to where we can all engage collectively to where we can value his opinion. It is almost like asking Andrea Dworkin to talk about patriarchy without vilifying the male persona. The whole "the west is better because" then followed by redundant and rhetorical reasons is not an attractive approach. In addition, to castigate an entire faith for the actions of a few (out of 1.8 billion Muslims Muslim terrorism is a few in comparison to the hundreds to the billion) leaves open to the whataboutisms for other faiths.

Now, I don't like to do a kill count but I'm quite sure both historically and presently, Christianity has killed more than any other faith in the history of mankind. But alas, this isn't about Christianity but considering many evangelicals tend to tout that Christianity has its foundations in the west, then we cannot help but to discuss this faith as well. More importantly, in order to have a viable discussion about Muslim extremism we need to consider the confounding factors that lead up to why some muslims go to the extreme lengths to indoctrinate themselves with extremist ideology, and why such extremist ideologies are attractive.

People forget that Western powers have a hand in influencing whole governments to rebel against their leads and there have been western powers that have abandoned people (the very people they originally had supported) and leaving them like lambs to the slaughter. Look at the case with Saddam Hussein. United States originally supported him then all of a sudden a political shift happened and now he is the bad guy. The same when the United States militarily supported Osama Bin Laden. So yes of course we need to talk about extremism but we need to also address the elements of how extremism happens, why it continues and why there is continued underdevelopment in the Muslim world.

BTW a few underdeveloped countries does not mean the entire Muslim community is poor so I think we need to make that distinction clear.

A woman's role in those societies, for example, is not at all acceptable to us in Western countries. — Hanover

The same is like that here as well. Whenever we discuss women's rights online a lot of white men seem to be up in arms about why we need to discuss women's rights then most certainly it turns into a shouting match of who is the most oppressed or why we can't force a women to have a baby when she wants an abortion because she was raped and so forth. Yes socially we are improved but we are in no moral position to wag our finger at someone.

I think it's also a waste of time to yell back at them calling them murderers. Our poster poses no threat to anyone. — Hanover

I said:

But no, this is the ramblings of some nut job who most likely will go to a mosque and kill another 50 peopl — Anaxagoras

Let me rephrase....

What I meant was these beliefs, the whole "we are better than you" motif are the elements of those who have extreme worldviews when it comes to religion and culture. When that coward decided to kill those people in that mosque he held similar supremacist beliefs (of course he was a white nationalist) and one of the elements of these beliefs is the fact that he demonized an entire community and felt that this community was an immediate threat and decided to take it upon himself to do something about it. But in no way am I saying this guy is the same as him, I don't know. What I do know that the key element to extremist views is having a supremacist mindset.

Terrorist no. But it is the type of sensationalist asinine approach to another faith that can develop extremist tendencies or attract others with extremist tendencies. This "we are better than you mentality" is the kind of element extremists especially those on the right side of politics love. — Anaxagoras

I can't excuse terrorism, regardless of whatever excuse a terrorist might provide, including the unpersuasive "you made me do it with all your hate" argument.

Unfortunately a lot of people very often conflate western ideals with U.S. American ideals (I have been guilty of this) and tend to impart the common uneducated misappropriate rant that Americans here often do. — Anaxagoras

In a single breathe you condemn small minded stereotyping while also stereotyping how Americans tend to act.

The whole "the west is better because" then followed by redundant and rhetorical reasons is not an attractive approach. In addition, to castigate an entire faith for the actions of a few (out of 1.8 billion Muslims Muslim terrorism is a few in comparison to the hundreds to the billion) leaves open to the whataboutisms for other faiths. — Anaxagoras

I'm not talking about the small number of terrorists, but the rather large number of Muslims living under theocratic rule.

Now, I don't like to do a kill count but I'm quite sure both historically and presently, Christianity has killed more than any other faith in the history of mankind. — Anaxagoras

It's been quite a few centuries that Christians killed in the name of Christianity, which was my point in referencing the fact that many of the Muslim nations are culturally primitive in terms of acceptance of basic human rights.

People forget that Western powers have a hand in influencing whole governments to rebel against their leads and there have been western powers that have abandoned people (the very people they originally had supported) and leaving them like lambs to the slaughter. — Anaxagoras

I don't think it's forgotten at all, but it forms the common basis for blaming the West for the terrorism exacted upon it by Muslims when it does occur.

The same is like that here as well. Whenever we discuss women's rights online a lot of white men seem to be up in arms about why we need to discuss women's rights then most certainly it turns into a shouting match of who is the most oppressed or why we can't force a women to have a baby when she wants an abortion because she was raped and so forth. Yes socially we are improved but we are in no moral position to wag our finger at someone. — Anaxagoras

You'll have to explain to me why a white male's opinion as to the treatment of women should be discounted because of race and gender. It sounds patently racist and sexist, but perhaps you meant something else. I also don't fully appreciate why women are in a superior position to know when human life begins and why women ought be the final authority of when an abortion is appropriate fetacide and not inappropriate infanticide, so that too needs further explaining.

Regardless, what you describe in terms of Western sexism is child's play when compared to the relegated status of Muslim women in the Muslim world. It's one thing to debate the complex question of when life begins and quite another to institutionalize male superiority through law.

It is entirely possible to separate this out between primitive culture versus primitive religion, with the West's adoption of Christianity making Christianity appear more sophisticated simply because it is the ideology of the more sophisticated peoples. The same holds true within Christianity as well, with the religious views of those in uneducated and unsophisticated regions of the US being far less sophisticated than their more urbanized counterparts. It's why you see snake handling and speaking in tongues in one region and an intellectual approach in the other, despite their reliance upon the same sacred documents. That is to say I'm willing to grant that Islam itself is not the problem, but we can't deny the obvious superiority of life in the US than in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, or even Pakistan and those people's reliance upon their religion to support their continued way of life.

ou seldomly don't hear (from Christians) that Islam and Christianity are Abrahamic religions you mean. — Anaxagoras

What you hear about is of a Judeo-Christian heritage from Christians.

Perhaps some Finnish Bishop might talk about both being Abrahamic religions, but then again he (or she) is here a semi-official here as there is no clear separation of Church and state.

I'm willing to grant that Islam itself is not the problem, but we can't deny the obvious superiority of life in the US than in Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, or even Pakistan and those people's reliance upon their religion to support their continued way of life. — Hanover

I don't think all Saudi's have it so bad.

my basement does not have under developed social skills.

Anyone who wants to talk about religion and culture without at the same time talking economics, politics, and social conditions is a priori ruled out of having anything meaningful whatsoever to say. — StreetlightX

An idea for another thread, perhaps: even allowing for substantial feedback between the different levels of inquiry, does it make more sense to look for explanations about "economics, politics, and social conditions" in the study of "religion and culture", or vice versa?

:yum:

In a single breathe you condemn small minded stereotyping while also stereotyping how Americans tend to act. — Hanover

I'm an American. I've observed Americans at their best and their worse. In the United States, many citizens are guilty of this. For example, shortly after 9/11 U.,S. citizens were targeting people of Indian descent because they felt that Indians from India who wore turbans were Muslim. The Indian community had to explain, listen, they had to explain that their turban was a custom in their faith and had no barring on the Islamic religion. All because Americans thought with one broad stroke of a brush assumed people who wore turbans were Muslim. So yes, I do stereotype on a behavior that is quite common here in the states.

I'm not talking about the small number of terrorists, but the rather large number of Muslims living under theocratic rule. — Hanover

Be specific. Can't presuppose a plausible statement if you cannot substantiate that with evidence. There are plenty Muslim dominated countries. But, to help you out, let look at countries with theocracies:

Vatican

Mauritania

Iran

Sudan

Yemen

Afghanistan

highlighting the bold are you saying those five Muslim countries sponsor terrorism because they're theocratic, if so why isn't the Vatican not a part of it? Or were you inferring something else?

It's been quite a few centuries that Christians killed in the name of Christianity. — Hanover

Are you implying that there isn't a continuance of killings in the name of Christianity? I can name several white nationalist organizations whose Christian faith is a proponent of their beliefs, and they tend to commit criminal acts, and religion is among those as the reason for their acts. But I'll wait for your interpretation of the above quote.

which was my point in referencing the fact that many of the Muslim nations are culturally primitive in terms of acceptance of basic human rights. — Hanover

Which nations that are Muslim are primitive or are you generalizing? Can you specify which country? Let me help you out, there are approximately 50 Muslim countries. Which among the 50 are primitive and what makes them primitive? That is your homework for today.

I don't think it's forgotten at all, but it forms the common basis for blaming the West for the terrorism exacted upon it by Muslims when it does occur. — Hanover

Because the West does have some sort of blame in all this. I believe the Iranian president made the remark today regarding the Iranian guard being labeled terrorist to the extent of:

"How do you label a nation's military a terrorist organization when you commit terrorist acts yourself? Shall I remind you how an American battleship shot a missile destroying Iran flight 655?"

Of course I was paraphrasing but there is an article on yahoo with the exact quote. Point is, when the United States supports regimes other groups are oppressed by, when we back governments that harm people you create enemies. When you create enemies and these enemies are poor and have no other options you create the perfect recipe for extremism. A great example of this is the Nation of Islam. Due to racism and racist laws many black Americans had no voice nor any rights or protections under the law. If you live a life of oppression all you need is a charismatic leader to influence you that the "white man" is the devil and that you are a divine people. Train a distressed people with discipline, pervert sacred texts for one's own gain, and demonize a target you can create an extremist organization. So yes the western powers do have a hand in this indeed and yes this is why many Muslims even those straddling the moderate to extreme fence believe.

You'll have to explain to me why a white male's opinion as to the treatment of women should be discounted because of race and gender. — Hanover

I was making an example but here in the United States and elsewhere, the system of patriarchy was largely white and influenced by white protestant men. Which is why many women's rights groups today are basing their arguments on when it comes to social inequity. When feminists of color argue that white male patriarchy hurts them it doubly affects them on the race as well as gender front. So when men (largely white men) take issue of women fighting for social equity it is something to the effect of:

“When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Which is the response to a lot of issues concerning women speaking out on sexual abuse, the gap in gender pay etc and the typical male response. That is not to say white male's opinion is not valuable but when it comes to our worldview for a long time we have seen the world through the lens of the white male for far too long and this includes Muslim countries. So yes, when we talk about looking at the world from a different perspective the response from the white male (not all but those who have have the typical patriarchal viewpoint), it is like taking a toy from a toddler. The result is having groups like MGTOW and the like.

It sounds patently racist and sexist, but perhaps you meant something else. — Hanover

Reading is indeed fundamental. Stop reading into things with cognitive dissonance and read, if I wanted to be racist and insult the white demographic I wouldn't use jargon nor waste time writing an entire paragraph. Jesus, read.

I also don't fully appreciate why women are in a superior position to know when human life begins and why women ought be the final authority of when an abortion is appropriate fetacide and not inappropriate infanticide, so that too needs further explaining. — Hanover

Who said this above bullshit? I didn't infer such things. Bro, on another note a woman's body is her body she ultimately has the final say so. until we men start giving birth through a a potential third canal or something crazy we have no say so on what a woman should do with her body no matter how unfair it seems. When you have a full breathing human come out of you then you can determine the fate of such a human. but again we are getting away from the subject.

Regardless, what you describe in terms of Western sexism is child's play when compared to the relegated status of Muslim women in the Muslim world. — Hanover

Although you disagree with the OP (as you said) you sure are going hard in the paint for it....Anyway, yes some of the Muslim countries have a lot to do when it comes to their social order, but hey I'm not concerned about their government I'm concerned about the monkey in this administration who is ruining the image of the U.S. This so-called leader who espouses in glee that he grabs women by the genitalia and that we still have a base that sees nothing wrong with this is alarming. With that being said the finger wagging towards Muslims and their respective countries is like our way of introducing pot and kettle.

t's one thing to debate the complex question of when life begins and quite another to institutionalize male superiority through law. — Hanover

Ok.

It is entirely possible to separate this out between primitive culture versus primitive religion, with the West's adoption of Christianity making Christianity appear more sophisticated simply because it is the ideology of the more sophisticated peoples. — Hanover

See, you're no different...So miss me with the "I largely disagree with the OP bullshit. You're full of shit just like the author that wrote this. Christianity is sophisticated huh for sophisticated people? The fuck out of here...I need not responding to the rest of the bullshit you wrote.

What you hear about is of a Judeo-Christian heritage from Christians.

Perhaps some Finnish Bishop might talk about both being Abrahamic religions, but then again he (or she) is here a semi-official here as there is no clear separation of Church and state. — ssu

Perhaps. The only time I hear about the relationship between all three are usually from scholars from all three faiths.

See the issue with common Christian ignorance when it comes to Islam came to ahead when many evangelicals were calling Allah a "moon god," but they had to readjust their argument when they began to realize that there are Christian Arabs who refer to God as Allah as well just as there is a long history of Jews who re Arab who refer to God as Allah because Arabic is a semitic language among the same language that Jesus himself spoke./

I'm an American. I've observed Americans at their best and their worse. In the United States, many citizens are guilty of this. For example, shortly after 9/11 U.,S. citizens were targeting people of Indian descent because they felt that Indians from India who wore turbans were Muslim. The Indian community had to explain, listen, they had to explain that their turban was a custom in their faith and had no barring on the Islamic religion. All because Americans thought with one broad stroke of a brush assumed people who wore turbans were Muslim. So yes, I do stereotype on a behavior that is quite common here in the states. — Anaxagoras

My point was that it was logically inconsistent to blame Americans for the sin of stereotyping when it comes to Muslims and then for you to openly admit to the sin of stereotyping when it comes to how you think Americans stereotypically behave. My objection was that you were being logically inconsistent, something you now admit to.

Be specific. Can't presuppose a plausible statement if you cannot substantiate that with evidence. There are plenty Muslim dominated countries. But, to help you out, let look at countries with theocracies:

Vatican

Mauritania

Iran

Sudan

Yemen

Afghanistan

highlighting the bold are you saying those five Muslim countries sponsor terrorism because they're theocratic, if so why isn't the Vatican not a part of it? Or were you inferring something else? — Anaxagoras

I didn't say anything about the theocratic countries sponsoring terrorism. I objected to theocracies as a general proposition, regardless of whether they were terrorist. Theocratic rule is antithetical to the Western democratic norms, which I do believe superior to Muslim theocratic norms. And, as I noted, and which you didn't respond to: (1) I view Western morality objectively superior because to allow otherwise permits a problematic moral relativism, and (2) the Vatican is a tiny administrative state without any inhabitants that don't choose to be there, so there is minimal oppression there.

Are you implying that there isn't a continuance of killings in the name of Christianity? I can name several white nationalist organizations whose Christian faith is a proponent of their beliefs, and they tend to commit criminal acts, and religion is among those as the reason for their acts. But I'll wait for your interpretation of the above quote. — Anaxagoras

I don't believe that Christianity in its modern form supports terrorism, but there are obviously those misguided people who wrongly do things in the name of Christianity. My reply was specifically to your comment where you said, "Christianity has killed more than any other faith in the history of mankind," and I correctly pointed out that is very much a historical artifact, referencing the Crusades and the like.

Which nations that are Muslim are primitive or are you generalizing? — Anaxagoras

As I already noted, those Muslim nations that are theocracies are more primitive the Western democracies, simply by virtue of their deriving their authority from the general will of the people as opposed to their claims their authority comes from God.

A great example of this is the Nation of Islam. Due to racism and racist laws many black Americans had no voice nor any rights or protections under the law. If you live a life of oppression all you need is a charismatic leader to influence you that the "white man" is the devil and that you are a divine people. Train a distressed people with discipline, pervert sacred texts for one's own gain, and demonize a target you can create an extremist organization. So yes the western powers do have a hand in this indeed and yes this is why many Muslims even those straddling the moderate to extreme fence believe. — Anaxagoras

Sure, and the murderer on the inner city street grew up with nothing and had no other options but to murder, so I'll excuse him as well. The vast majority of those who grow up in difficult situations don't become terrorists, so I'm going to allow for a certain amount of free will here, accepting that there are always two paths one can travel, and holding those responsible who choose the worse path.

Reading is indeed fundamental. Stop reading into things with cognitive dissonance and read, if I wanted to be racist and insult the white demographic I wouldn't use jargon nor waste time writing an entire paragraph. Jesus, read. — Anaxagoras

I'm pointing out you were racist and sexist in your comments, regardless of whether you could have been more blatantly so. You specifically discounted the opinions of white men due to their being white men. You may think your discrimination against those based upon race and sex is justified, but all racists and sexists do. I'm not just hurling an insult at you by calling you names. I'm pointing out that your comments intentionally or not are in fact racist and sexist.

Who said this above bullshit? I didn't infer such things. Bro, on another note a woman's body is her body she ultimately has the final say so. until we men start giving birth through a a potential third canal or something crazy we have no say so on what a woman should do with her body no matter how unfair it seems. When you have a full breathing human come out of you then you can determine the fate of such a human. but again we are getting away from the subject. — Anaxagoras

You specifically brought up abortion and indicated that a woman has the right to decide whether to abort or not. So it was you who brought up what you now describe as bullshit. You didn't imply it, you explicitly stated it, and you do so here again. The idea that an expectant mother can choose to abort at the 8th month, for example, is a radical view that you're taking. If you don't think you've presented that as your position, re-read what you've said. My point remains: the question of what is a protectable human life is a question both men and women have the right to answer. Even Roe v. Wade permits this,

This so-called leader who espouses in glee that he grabs women by the genitalia and that we still have a base that sees nothing wrong with this is alarming. With that being said the finger wagging towards Muslims and their respective countries is like our way of introducing pot and kettle. — Anaxagoras

You're claiming logical equivalency between the Trump presidency and Muslim theocracy?

See, you're no different...So miss me with the "I largely disagree with the OP bullshit. You're full of shit just like the author that wrote this. Christianity is sophisticated huh for sophisticated people? The fuck out of here...I need not responding to the rest of the bullshit you wrote. — Anaxagoras

Yes, the Christian theology being taught at Harvard, for example, is quite different than the Christianity being taught in the hills of Arkansas. The Islam being taught in Harvard is also quite different from that being taught by Hamas.

As to your last comment, is throwing yourself on the floor and having a temper tantrum effective in other aspects of your life?

The problems of the Muslim world are foremost political problems. There are big differences between Muslims. In Sub-Saharian Africa, Islam is different than the Islam of Maghreb, Mazrec, Iran, Indonesia, Turkey and so on.

Terrorism and Radicalism are phenomena of the last two centuries. Islam has not been like this always.

Henceforth, you cannot leave aside all the political, geographical, historical and social issues when you describe Islam and Muslims.

I do not doubt that the ideology and values of Islam differ from Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism, but I do not know how we can build a discussion on Muslim values, when so many other things are going on on the Muslim world.

Facts:

The most dangerous region in the world (if you exclude war zones), according to CIA Facts Book, is Central America (where 98% of the people believe in Jesus Christ).

Pollution and destruction of the global natural resources have been caused mostly by the West.

In college in Massachusetts, USA, I had a classmate, a Muslim, probably from Pakistan (I forget), an engineer and an intelligent and sophisticated person. He explained to me that as a Muslim he would be obliged - it would be his duty - to kill me, a non-Muslim, in the event of a declaration of a jihad to that effect. This well before 9-11, before even the Iraq wars.

The discussion proceeded along predictable lines. I draw from this that Islam, in terms of modern Western morality, is about 800 years in arrears of Christianity. I draw this generalization because my interlocutor at the time was both intelligent and well-informed. His thinking was not to be idly dismissed. And in a nutshell, there you have it. He would murder if his priest told him to. I would not, even if my priest told to.

And in passing, in the past few days the Sultan of Brunei has decreed death for adulterers and homosexuals. The idea is that Muslim apologists the world around have work to do in cleaning up their own houses. We all do, to be sure, but some more than others, a lot more.