• Banno
    5.3k
    Now I only skimmed and looked at the pictures... but hey, nice.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    :smile: :up: the pictures were nice or the writing you skimmed? lol
  • Banno
    5.3k
    The pictures were certainly eloquent.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    :lol: yeah, makes my window view seem insignificant
  • Grre
    77
    The issue is not with Islam in particular, but with religion, or even more generally, ideology. Islam is just one example (albeit a predominant one) of how ideology works, not only to hinder human welfare, but to create such absolute dogmatic following that the factions will split among each other, thus reinforcing cohesion and group facilitation within the ethnic/religious/political group. Thus you get Muslims vs. Christians, Russians vs. Americas, Communists vs. Capitalist ect. ect. If anyone has read 1984 by George Orwell, one will see how this works to maintain perpetual war and conflict, thus resulting in the ultimate subjugation of the people in the groups from realizing the relativity and true purpose of their beloved dogma.

    Religion is just one example of such ideology, culture plays a role, often ideologies are begot by cultures, and as Gramsci noted, ideologies beget (and construct) culture of their own. All of this is ideology, and intersubjective. It is not objective, absolute, or eternally universal/material in any sense. It is not subjective either (usually), felt only by the qualia of the experiencer. It is created among people's intersocial interactions, and exists to these subjective individuals involved in these interactions, seemingly objective to the individuals as well.

    Which ideology is more "moral" is therefore a ridiculous question, seeing as it is just that, relative and intersubjective ideology, there is no 'true' value, and there certainly is no real comparison between any. They are all ideology-what other implications could there be?
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    The issue is not with Islam in particular, but with religion, or even more generally, ideology.Grre

    Ok, interesting approach. I wonder if what you're about to tell us manages to transcend ideology.

    not only to hinder human welfare, but to create such absolute dogmatic following that the factions will split among each other, thus reinforcing cohesion and group facilitation within the ethnic/religious/political group.Grre

    Quick question, are you the only person who thinks this? Or does there happen to be a group of you?

    Thus you get Muslims vs. Christians, Russians vs. Americas, Communists vs. Capitalist ect. ect.Grre

    or ideology vs. anti-ideology... lol

    If anyone has read 1984 by George Orwell, one will see how this works to maintain perpetual war and conflict, thus resulting in the ultimate subjugation of the people in the groups from realizing the relativity and true purpose of their beloved dogma.Grre

    sounds like a grand-narrative that seeks to explain how we go wrong as humans and hints at possibly offering a suggestion to help us transcend our suffering and conflict in order to unify us and grant us more happiness than when we were astray while consumed by ideologies, if only we were to believe as you believe...

    ideologies beget (and construct) culture of their ownGrre

    are you now culture-less with your ideology-less position? You're not constructing something new here at all from the ruins of the previous ideologies are you?

    All of this is ideology, and intersubjective.Grre

    ok, and so a group of people committed to an anti-ideology stance stumble upon each other on the internet, read books and articles (and comments on forums) by other anti-ideology individuals, and this can't be referred to as intersubjective..?

    It is not objective, absolute, or eternally universal/material in any sense.Grre

    Is that objectively and absolutely so?

    It is created among people's intersocial interactions, and exists to these subjective individuals involved in these interactions, seemingly objective to the individuals as well.Grre

    lol, has the irony not dawned on you yet?

    Which ideology is more "moral" is therefore a ridiculous question,Grre

    and so the right thing to do, as a member of a society, is to stop this ideology vs. ideology stance, and rather adopt the truth, which is this new and improved ideology vs. anti-ideology stance in which we transcend that which causes us conflict and will unify us. Leaving our silly old ways behind and totally not making the same mistakes.

    seeing as it is just that, relative and intersubjective ideology,Grre

    thanks for giving me this new enlightened way of seeing the world that is not relative and intersubjective ideology... (as it isn't relative it must be.. what exactly?)

    there is no 'true' valueGrre

    apart from this one. lol

    and there certainly is no real comparison between anyGrre

    apart from the comparisons you've made in this comment. But other than that, non at all.

    They are all ideology-what other implications could there be?Grre

    yes they are! thank you for opening my eyes, taking me out of darkness and into the light! :cheer:
  • Be Kind
    13
    I don't know much about Islam only what gets into the news. I tried to read some on the Wikipedia but I just couldn't keep my attention. Can you recommend good somewhat objective source of this subject? Another question when you compare Muslims to the west you mean countries with mostly Muslim population vs US and some countries in Europe?
  • Grre
    77


    To be fair, you didn't exactly moot my point. All I was doing was highlighting the prevalence of ideology. Commitment to anti-ideology is, as you pointed out, undeniably is its own form of meta-ideology. I'm not sure myself how to escape this circular trap, maybe enjoyment/participaition of ideology ironically? Like enjoying in spite of it's relativity?

    yes they are! thank you for opening my eyes, taking me out of darkness and into the light! :cheer:
    Never claimed to take you into the light. Perhaps there is not a light to be taken to? If man cannot exist asocially, that is, outside of intersubjective reality, then yes, perhaps ideology and all it entails; forms of religion, culture, is inextricable from humanity. But still, my overall point remains, what is the point over quibbling? Religion at least, if you want to involve a ranking system, is the most obtuse, and ridiculous of the ideologies that constitute human society. The fact that individuals still hold onto it into the twenty-first century baffles and alarms me.
  • Jacob-B
    29


    Very recently the sultan of Brunei managed to focus the world's attention on the barbarity of large part of the Islamic world. His law about stoning to death gays and adulterers raised anger and boycotts in the West. But the sultan is not unique in this respect. Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia are not far off.
    The treatment of LGBT and the status of women are the current litmus pap test for civil society.
  • Ilya B Shambat
    169
    First start by reading the Quran. I had a friend named Nicholas Starkovsky who translated the Quran into English while extensively annotating it, you can find his work on Amazon. Other than that, read the news, they are frequently there.
  • YuZhonglu
    218
    You know, if the Communists invade a Muslim country I don't think the Communists will win. Those Muslims are pretty stubborn at defending their lands.
  • S
    10.2k
    And it is an argument, as can be seen here, that Christians will see as supporting their morally bankrupt religion.Banno

    That one definitely gets one of these: :100:

    I love how it brought this out of the woodwork:

    Christianity is far from morally bankrupt. I am a part of the Salvation Army, and these people are completely sincere as well as ethical.Ilya B Shambat

    Yet those damn dirty Moslems be evil, I tells thee! :lol:

    What's with the title? Islam isn't a region. Islam is a religion, like Christianity, from which it is derived, much like Christianity is derived from Judaism. Islam has adherents in the West, some of whom I know personally, and they are lovely people, far from morally bankrupt.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    Never claimed to take you into the light.Grre

    I was being hyperbolic to bring the point home lol I know you didn't, your comment certainly didn't give that impression either. All in all, I was just trying to highlight how your position kicks its own legs from under itself. Its a well thought through position, one I inclined to in the past. But its flawed because it becomes what it decries as a faulty way of being. It takes you back to where it was attempting to take you away from. its still a stepping stone though, you just have to move from it to the next point I guess.

    But still, my overall point remains, what is the point over quibbling?Grre

    This is a philosophy forum. All we do is quibble over every last detail :P
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    First start by reading the Quran. I had a friend named Nicholas Starkovsky who translated the Quran into English while extensively annotating it, you can find his work on Amazon. Other than that, read the news, they are frequently there.Ilya B Shambat

    lol, why are you only responding to non-critical posts?



    I recommend searching for "Tafsir of the Quran", either on youtube or on amazon. There are lots of books and video material covering interpretation of the Quran. Be careful though, the internet can be a toxic place (both within and without the islamic community) as there can be many differing opinions on certain topics and people can often get heated. So if you are going to research it further I recommend patience and diligence.


    Also, It's good to do research on the what a "madhab" is, as this will inevitably come up in your research.

    There are different schools of thought, which in itself can come across a bit confusing at first, but if you persist, it doesn't take to long to get your head around it. This is important because if you are reading the interpretation of a minority of scholars in one particular sect, which the majority of scholars disagree with, and you don't take the differing schools of thought into consideration while you're reading, you are likely to confuse the belief of a minority with islam in general.

    Its like reading information on a controversial philosophy subject, and because you've read one philosopher who believes there is no such thing as the external world, understanding that as all philosophers hold this same belief.

    A brief description on demographics helps this.

    There are two main sects, and these sects break up into subsects (there are more than this but their numbers are incredibly small):

    1. Sunni - 80-90% of the worlds muslims and all accept each of the Sunni madhabs as legitimate schools of thought and continually engage in debate with each other
    a. Hanafi - the largest of the subgroups
    b. Maliki
    c. Shafi'i
    d. Hanbali

    2. Shia - 10-20%
    a. Twelver
    b. Zaidi
    c. Ismaili

    So for example, if you stumble upon an article and do not take any of this into account, and you read something written from a Shia Ismaili scholar who claims X, Y & Z, you may accidentally confuse this as being something that Islam in general teaches, and therefore, something that all muslims believe. Which would be false.

    If you want to understand what the majority of muslims believe, looking into the tafsir (quranic interpretation) of Hanafi scholars is a good place to start. And then from there you can move onto other schools to see where they may differ in parts etc. At least then if you want to ease a discussion and say most muslims believe X, Y & Z, if its a Hanafi belief, you'll be correct in making such a claim.

    This is something a lot of people involved in the polemics don't do. They search for the most controversial things said by a minority group within the religion which the majority of the scholars disagree with, and then wrongfully transfer this belief onto ISLAM and proclaim "This is what the muslims believe!".

    You'll still come across controversies no doubt, but at least you'll be less likely to make false generalisations knowing this information.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    Other than that, read the news, they are frequently thereIlya B Shambat

    lol are you seriously recommending the news as a source of vital information in order to understand a group of people? haha, imagine if someone asked me where they should research what the right wing believe, or who the 'alt-right' was. If I pointed them to the news as a valid source of information on the topic they're likely to think everyone's alt-right and they all hate everyone who isn't a white cis-gendered male with a trump tattoo and a 'make America great again' hat.
  • Anaxagoras
    349
    It is kind of backwards to espouse views about conservatives being mostly bigoted and homophobic on one hand yet defending a religion, the members of whom applaud terrorism quite openly in numerous countries with high muslim populations, yet you’re willing to lump together others to suit your agenda.I like sushi

    I have no agenda. With respect to terrorism, white nationalism is more of a danger than terrorism espoused by Muslim extremists:

    "On Wednesday, the Anti-Defamation League released a report finding that attackers with ties to right-wing extremist movements killed at least 50 people in 2018. That was close to the total number of Americans killed by domestic extremists, meaning that the far right had an almost absolute monopoly on lethal terrorism in the United States last year."

    Source:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/homegrown-terrorists-2018-were-almost-all-right-wing/581284/


    Report: Domestic Terrorism Is Still a Greater Threat Than Islamic Extremism

    "According to FBI data, 150 Americans were arrested for planning to engage in acts of domestic terrorism in 2017, compared to 110 international suspects; in 2018, the ratio was 120 to 100......

    The rise in domestic terrorism — as profiled in a captivating New York Times Magazine report from 2018 — is largely driven by an uptick in far-right extremism. Of the 263 acts of domestic terrorism that occurred between 2010 and the end of 2017, 92, around a third, were committed by Americans on the far right. “If you have politicians saying things like our nation is under attack, that there are these marauding bands of immigrants coming into the country, that plays into this right-wing narrative,” Gary LaFree, a criminologist at the University of Maryland, told the Post. “They begin to think it’s okay to use violence.”

    Source:http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/domestic-terror-still-greater-threat-than-islamic-extremism.html

    No agenda necessary, just speaking facts.

    I do imagine that the vast majority of muslims in western countries are perfectly respectable people with perfectly respectable ideas and views (firsthand experience would back this up).I like sushi

    So I take it, if they're not in western countries they're not respectful of others views?

    You seem obsessed with viewing all human affairs through a US lens.I like sushi

    You seem to lack the intellectual depth at providing a correct worldview of religion. This is not just anecdotal its facts a common trait by someone who has never traveled outside their own house let alone to another country.
  • Anaxagoras
    349
    "And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah, who created them, if it should be Him that you worship"Mr Phil O'Sophy

    Of course I knew this, my point was merely to show how stupid evangelical Christians were/are.
  • Mr Phil O'Sophy
    1.3k
    Of course I knew this, my point was merely to show how stupid evangelical Christians were/are.Anaxagoras

    I could tell you knew this. Hence your comment. I was just giving the scriptural reference to back up your claim in counter to the "Allah is a moon god" argument.
  • Anaxagoras
    349
    I've heard the anti-Muslim immigration and to be honest, I support it,Judaka

    This is why such individuals who think like this fail at life...
  • I like sushi
    1.1k
    No agenda necessary, just speaking facts. — Anaxagoras

    You’re providing “facts” to evade. You say on one hand that most, if not all, conservatives are bigoted homophobes yet complain about others saying something akin to this even when they’re not actually saying such a thing (anyone can look and see above what you’ve posted; insinuation and either purposeful misinterpretation (for reasons unknown), non-purposeful misinterpretation (due to underlying personal agenda that has blinded balanced thought), or plain bloody-minded stupidity.

    I’m leaning hard toward the latter (maybe due to nothing more than human ire I hope) considering I said it seemed like you were only able to see things through a US lens and then you reply talking about home grown terrorists (US),reports in the NY Times (US) and some other talk about “Americans killed by domestic terrorists”. Please consider this gives reasonable weight to my comment about your view being through a US lens only. What is more bizarre still is this as a direct response to my remark about you seeming to view this through a US lens:

    You seem to lack the intellectual depth at providing a correct worldview of religion. This is not just anecdotal its facts a common trait by someone who has never traveled outside their own house let alone to another country.

    Correct me if I’m wrong but are not ALL of your responses in that post viewing terrorism ONLY through a US lens. I can only assume you accidentally deleted some of the text you meant to post in the quote above? I ask because it doesn’t make much sense, but you seem to be trying to insult me? I do most certainly lack the intellectual depth to provide a correct worldview of religion as does everyone. The second sentence is missing punctuation or words.
  • Be Kind
    13
    Thank you Mr Phil... Much appreciated. YouTube video is a great suggestion. Can you recommend a reliable video I can watch. Based on the information you mentioned I believe you already researched this subject yourself. Anything you perticularly liked about what a human should do or don't do based on Islam?
  • Anaxagoras
    349
    You say on one hand that most, if not all, conservatives are bigoted homophobesI like sushi

    The truth is the pursuit of laws here in the United States (conservatives are trying to create legislation to make it illegal for abortion just recently they're trying to make having a fetal heartbeat grounds for one to not have an abortion). In addition this is the political lean which tries to move goal posts by arguing about terrorism but statistically its adherents are the main proponents of domestic terror. So no, it is not deflection it is speaking fact. Where it becomes a problem for you is whether it is logical to say most, all, or some.

    onsidering I said it seemed like you were only able to see things through a US lens and then you reply talking about home grown terrorists (US),reports in the NY Times (US) and some other talk about “Americans killed by domestic terrorists”.I like sushi

    Yes because I am speaking from an American position because from where I sit in the media, Americans are the ones with the issues concerning so-called "Islamic terrorism" yet turn a blind eye to the domestic terrorist. Now even if you were to take away the American position and speak generally you'd understand that the mathematical numbers do not support the general presupposition of that morally speaking the West is superior and that there is some intrinsic issue with Islam. This is just downright bigoted and not supported by facts.

    Please consider this gives reasonable weight to my comment about your view being through a US lens only.I like sushi

    Because I'm an America like I said previously and I live here. If you're not going to supply a general worldview that gives weight in support of the OP then I can only go by my own perspective just as you are doing yours.

    I can only assume you accidentally deleted some of the text you meant to post in the quote above?I like sushi

    Huh?

    I ask because it doesn’t make much sense, but you seem to be trying to insult me?I like sushi

    No. What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what we think about the West with respect to the world and more specifically with the general Muslim community is largely due to the fact that many of you have not traveled outside your respective country to actually get to know other humans on the side of the globe as I have. I've learned long enough that our cultural perceptions regarding Muslims and other minority groups are largely due to media skewing facts and fear mongering.

    Look, I'm not trying to insult you, but your worldview regarding people of different cultures and religions is very shortsighted not to mention the slightest bit correct. Are there extremist who call themselves Muslims and are there issues within the Muslim community outside the United States and other western countries? Yes. But the fact of the matter is, is that the OP has an agenda and judging by the Op's fascination with talking about Islam, I'm willing to bet they have anti-Islam sentiments and not some real philosophical issue.
  • ssu
    1.4k
    Americans are the ones with the issues concerning so-called "Islamic terrorism" yet turn a blind eye to the domestic terrorist.Anaxagoras
    I don't think so. At least the government doesn't.

    Actually the security apparatus of the US government has taken a well balanced view on what are the terrorist threats to America. The FBI looks at various groups irrespectively of their political stand. Hence starting with Al Qaeda or right-wing militias, you have animal rights groups also followed. You have pro-gun movements and anti-gun movements kept tabs on. It's actually quite different from what the media, especially outlets like Fox News center on. And they know what the actual threat is.

    For the past several years, reports have indicated that domestic terrorists — specifically acts of mass violence by white men — are a far greater threat than actions perpetrated by Islamic extremists. According to the Washington Post, the trend continues: Internal FBI figures reviewed by the paper show more domestic terror suspects were arrested in 2018 than “those allegedly inspired by international terror groups.”

    According to FBI data, 150 Americans were arrested for planning to engage in acts of domestic terrorism in 2017, compared to 110 international suspects; in 2018, the ratio was 120 to 100. An FBI official claims that the decrease in the arrests of potential terrorists inspired by ISIS or Al-Qaeda in 2018 can be attributed to a growing number of Americans attempting to join the Islamic State abroad.

    The bureau investigates thousands of Americans for charges related to terrorism every year, though, as the Post notes, the public only is aware of dozens of the high-profile suspects charged with violent crimes, or the plans to carry them out.
    (See Report: Domestic Terrorism Is Still a Greater Threat Than Islamic Extremism)
  • I like sushi
    1.1k


    Shortsighted because I’ve questioned the intent of the OP and the wording (no reply from the OP btw)? Shortsighted because I look at the state of things on a global scale compared to just the US? I’m shortsighted because you’ve traveled somewhere? Shortsighted because I am well aware that “Conservative” doesn’t mean mostly homophobic, bigoted and/or anti-abortion?

    I’m not the one making sweeping statements about groups of people here YOU ARE. Furthermore I commented because your nonsensical reply to that frake? Drake? Whatever named member was purposefully skewed to make out he was saying several things he wasn’t.
  • George K
    16


    I think these videos with Imam Tawhidi are well-balanced.


  • Anaxagoras
    349
    I don't think so. At least the government doesn't.ssu

    I just posted an article regarding this but let me show you again:

    "According to FBI data, 150 Americans were arrested for planning to engage in acts of domestic terrorism in 2017, compared to 110 international suspects; in 2018, the ratio was 120 to 100."

    When it comes to double standards in the United States, it seems that the goal posts tend to move when proponents of terrorism or terrorist acts are broken down by race. In regards to the Huffington post in the media there is the phenomena of categorizing acts in relation to terrorism based on the race of the individual. The Huffington Post cites such contradiction in the following:

    "Early Sunday afternoon, Devin Kelley, a 26-year-old white male, walked into First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas with an AR-15 rifle and killed 26 people while wounding 20 others. Victims ages ranged from 1 to 72 years old. The scene was horrifying and heartbreaking but familiar.


    According to data from the Gun Violence Archive, it was the 307th mass shooting in the United States this year......


    If the attack is perpetrated by someone of the Islamic faith, the president immediately labels it terrorism and calls for new laws to be instituted and old ones abolished in order to make sure no more evil brown people worm their way into our pristine utopia. When the mass murderer is a white person, which is the most common scenario, it’s nearly always framed as a mental health issue. It’s never terrorism. Terrorism is something brown people do. And there are never any solutions proposed. Trump acknowledges the tragedy, sends his thoughts and prayers and then essentially says, it was a crazy guy ― what can you do?"

    Source:https://www.huffpost.com/entry/its-terrorism-if-youre-brown-its-mental-health_b_5a0098bce4b076eaaae271a6

    Actually the security apparatus of the US government has taken a well balanced view on what are the terrorist threats to America.ssu

    That is the problem from my vantage point the American government doesn't. Because people are still dying by domestic terrorist than international. Citing my source, you don't realize that this administration is pouring more resources into international terrorism more specifically terrorism carried about by Muslim fanatics than white nationalist. Did you not forget what Trump said after 50 people in both mosques were killed when asked the question on whether white nationalism was a growing issue?



    Apparently the focus of this administration and its concern in the media does not reflect the FBI opinion. If Ahmed went into a Catholic church and killed 50 people, the court of public opinion in the states would most certainly view this as terrorism due to the fact that there is a suspect and his name is Ahmed. White guy who is a right wing nationalist does the same, we are looking at his mental status.
  • christian2017
    295
    Because people are still dying by domestic terrorist than international.Anaxagoras



    did you mean " Because more people are still dying or by domestic terrorist than international?

    or

    Because people are still dying by domestic terrorist than international.Anaxagoras

  • aporiap
    155
    Probably the only thing that seems self evident is universal basic freedoms
    — aporiap

    What I think needs to be justified are universal basic rights
    — aporiap
    Banno
    I wasn't thinking of self-evident proposals. Rather, there are some propositions, the denial of which tells us about the denier.
    But this dodges the glaring problem of grounding. I agree it seems more than callous to deny basic rights, it feels disgusting, but that doesn't provide a formal grounding or justification.
  • Ilya B Shambat
    169

    "lol are you seriously recommending the news as a source of vital information in order to understand a group of people? haha, imagine if someone asked me where they should research what the right wing believe, or who the 'alt-right' was. If I pointed them to the news as a valid source of information on the topic they're likely to think everyone's alt-right and they all hate everyone who isn't a white cis-gendered male with a trump tattoo and a 'make America great again' hat."

    Oh yeah, and I'm exactly like those people.
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