• praxis
    1.7k
    From the article:
    — praxis

    “It creates the perception of a crisis,” Stancliff said of ICE’s highly visible mass drop-offs of families without onward travel arrangements. “It creates the perception that we are overwhelmed by people being released from detention.”

    Thank you for at least reading what I am posting. I greatly appreciate it. The perception of a crisis is in the eye of those charged with handling the it. For me? The reported 18,500 people being supported by our churches and ngo are a slight indicator of how many are actually making it in. Even still, three months 18.5k people? At this rate, by years end, we will have absorbed an entire city.
    ArguingWAristotleTiff

    My interpretation of the article is that bottleneck in transportation creates the “perception” of a crisis and that those arriving will disperse throughout the country and not overtax the area of the bottleneck for long.

    Incidentally, your posts on the subject have been brimming with emotion. If you’re just venting that’s cool, but you might express it in a way that others can more easily empathize. If it’s intentional and designed to be persuasive, probably not a good call for this audience.

    In any case I’m sorry for your distress and I’m inspired to check with my representatives regarding immigration reform.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    6.2k
    The coffers are empty, the well is dry, we cannot handle the sheer number regardless of costs.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    This is from Wikipedia:
    Research suggests that immigration to the United States is beneficial to the U.S. economy. With few exceptions, the evidence suggests that on average, immigration has positive economic effects on the native population, but it is mixed as to whether low-skilled immigration adversely affects low-skilled natives. Studies also show that immigrants have lower crime rates than natives in the United States.[10][11][12] Research shows that the United States excels at assimilating first- and second-generation immigrants relative to many other Western countries. — Wikipedia: Immigration to the United States
  • Maw
    1.6k
    Tiff's whole rant here is no different from Fox/Trump propaganda.
  • Maw
    1.6k
    Hey here's an idea, instead of defunding public services, let's tax the rich to better fund these services instead and help the people who are fleeing the countries the US fucked over decades ago, instead of demonizing them, and rounding them up in concentration camps. wow so crazy.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    6.2k

    The United States has been deeply involved, and holds a high degree of responsibility for the crisis in Central America, as Bitter Crank has already pointed out. This goes back to the anti-communist campaigns of the eighties. Back then, if they tried to leave they were bombed as rebels. It appears like the US has had success in its effort to keep Central America from going communist. But now there's no pretense for killing migrants.
  • frank
    3.7k
    But now there's no pretense for killing migrants.Metaphysician Undercover

    Que?
  • Baden
    8.7k


    Polls consistently show a preference among Americans for higher taxes on the rich. But somehow it never happens. What does happen is fiscally irresponsible tax breaks that drive national debt to unsustainable levels, and then that unsustainable debt is used as an excuse for cutting public services. And just in case anyone notices, induce distracting panic about immigrants, Muslims, PC, SJWs etc.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    Tiff's whole rant here is no different from Fox/Trump propaganda.Maw

    It's times like these that I miss 180 the most. As a fellow resident of AZ he might be able to verify or dismiss what I am saying.
    All I can say is that I am trying. Believe it or not I am trying to change and it is not in carrying the adminstration talking points but to move to a place to help those in need.

    There is no way for someone to change overnight but I am trying to move my focus. I guess I will see if Philosophy allows for evolution of perspectives.
  • S
    11.8k
    Hey here's an idea, instead of defunding public services, let's tax the rich to better fund these services instead and help the people who are fleeing the countries the US fucked over decades ago, instead of demonizing them, and rounding them up in concentration camps. wow so crazy.Maw

    It's just a giant distraction technique, isn't it? And so many of the mindless masses lap it up. It's classic divide and rule.
  • Maw
    1.6k
    It's times like these that I miss 180 the most. As a fellow resident of AZ he might be able to verify or dismiss what I am saying.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Yeah I definitely don't think 180 Proof would approve of the xenophobic propaganda expressed on Fox News, or by Trump or other right-wing groups and organizations.

    Anyway, no one is asking you to change your views overnight, but we've had this conversation for about a year now.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    Yeah I definitely don't think 180 Proof would approve of the xenophobic propaganda expressed on Fox News, or by Trump or other right-wing groups and organizations.Maw

    When I spoke of 180 it was to at the very least to get another Phoenicians point of view and to verify or deny the actions in our state. But his position on this is not one I am willing to guess.

    Yeah, no one is asking you to change your views overnight, but we've had this conversation for about a year now.Maw

    Maw, you have been very patient with me and with a couple others have allowed me to evolve my position on this and for that I am grateful and Thank you.

    My perspective on this in the beginning is not where I stand today. I had been trying to understand how the government enforcing the laws on the books was "unethical" even if it meant the separation of children from their family or the adults they were traveling with which are not always one in the same.

    I expressed that, shared words here in thread as well as private conversations about my perspective and I was moved. I shifted positions towards a more humane one.

    True change takes time but I am moving, it might not be fast enough for some and others will never let me change.

    All I can do is keep educating myself, remain flexible enough to shift positions and keep on moving towards a humane answer.

    Thank you for your patience Maw
  • Baden
    8.7k


    Can't be more reasonable than that. You would probably be the perfect person if you stopped watching Fox News. :smile:
  • praxis
    1.7k
    In a news conference today, Trump claimed that one benefit of closing the southern border is that it would stop "hundreds of millions of dollars of drugs" from coming into the US. Apparently, he knows that the vast majority of drugs smuggled into the US is through legal ports of entry.
  • Maw
    1.6k
    Thank you for your patience MawArguingWAristotleTiff

    To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you beforeMaw

    Maw, there is no apology from me for who I have been. For without being where I was, there would be no movement to where I want to be.

    There is no way for me to instill in you the faith necessary for me to grow. I can do it with or without you and others but I chose to try, listen and keep an open mind and heart.

    Maw, you and I both know that you can stop responding to me at any point. I appreciate the time you have taken with me and hope you are a part of my future but only if you want to be. :flower:
  • frank
    3.7k
    Of course it's an issue. Arizona isn't Florida. It will run out of resources quicker.

    But one thing to consider is that Trump purposefully delayed hiring the judges needed to process people legally. It's like he wanted a crisis of some sort. To some extent, the situation would improve if we had a different president.

    I don't say that with any partisan spirit. I've had my fill of whiney liberals who can be counted upon to do exactly the same shit they criticize.
  • S
    11.8k
    To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before.Maw

    It's definitely a pattern. It's like your thinking changes with your mood, @ArguingWAristotleTiff. I much prefer the sympathetic Tiff to the angry ranting Tiff. I would actually love to see more of the angry ranting Tiff if it was directed at the right target. Like, oh, I don't know, oil tycoons, say.
  • frank
    3.7k
    That sounded sexist. Stop being a loser.
  • S
    11.8k
    That sounded sexist. Stop being a loser.frank

    What an offensive and idiotic thing to say. It was emotional whether she's a she or he. I'm not going to withhold that assessment just because she happens to be a woman or because people like you might jump to conclusions about that irrelevant fact.
  • frank
    3.7k
    Why so angry? Was it the "loser" part?
  • S
    11.8k
    Why so angry? Was it the "loser" part?frank

    I get very angry over false accusations regarding the things I care a lot about. I don't think I've ever resorted to such extreme flaming in my ten years as part of this forum and the old one, so congratulations.
  • frank
    3.7k
    So you do know that grown-ups take responsibility for their own words and actions?
  • tim wood
    3.3k
    Trump hurts people. Very likely he has always hurt people. He has already hurt millions of people, albeit most of them indirectly. But it's coming. It is a great shame that some of the laborers he cheated years ago did not educate him with a baseball bat, or the various prosecutors he skated past or the IRS didn't reel him in. We should be made of sterner stuff. Maybe some of us are. He's the poster child for, "If good men do nothing...".

    I trust our nation of laws, but they seem slow, and to be sure subject to manipulation. All are problems to be solved. And Henry II whispers, "Will no one rid us..!".
  • unenlightened
    4k
    It's very hard not to get riled up at times, and I try to remember that the worst of politicians want to exploit my anger. So as my friends here are a bit fractious today, I thought to remind y'all that if you close the border, we'll be making a trade deal for all those avocados at a knockdown price in exchange for the lamb we can't export to the EU any more. Let's try and remember that the dirty foreigners have been feeding us and buying our crap all these years, and are just trying to get by in hard times like we are.
  • frank
    3.7k
    I get very angry over false accusations regarding the things I care a lot about. I don't think I've ever resorted to such extreme flaming in my ten years as part of this forum and the old one, so congratulations.S

    I still don't quite understand why your head exploded there, but I think it's quite possible that you aren't sexist so much as unaware of some stereotypes. If you'd let me explain:

    It's like your thinking changes with your mood,S

    This touches on a pretty old stereotype that says women are weak by virtue of their tender emotions. They can't be relied upon to think straight. I've interacted with Tiff for a while now and haven't noticed that her heart is necessarily always in charge of her brain. In fact there are a number of males on the forum who do stand out as exhibiting that tendency, but not Tiff. That's why you come across as throwing out a sexist stereotype for the purpose of being a hurtful. As I said, I think it's quite possible that you didn't even know about that stereotype, but could you not be open minded enough to hear what I'm telling you?

    I much prefer the sympathetic Tiff to the angry ranting Tiff.S

    Yes, so you did temper this with the next sentence, which said you wanted to see the ranting Tiff direct her ire at a better target. Nevertheless, you should understand that you hit the big red button with this one sentence. In the past, men were allowed to rant. It was seen as a sign of strength. As Adolph Hitler spat all the way across the audience with his fuming, no one thought of his behavior as inappropriate. If he'd been a woman, the screaming would have been a problem. The small amount of credibility a woman might have had would be reduced to zero by even a mild rant. This has held women back in a number of professions where expressions of aggression are part of the scene, such as in politics.

    So for what it's worth: just be aware of the stereotypes you might be pinging with your statements.
  • praxis
    1.7k
    I don't think anyone actually believed that Trump could get away with closing the border, though I think we know he's capable of actually doing something that stupid.

    The threat of placing tariffs on Mexican car imports, a year from now without compliance with his demands, is weird but maybe works for him? For his supporters, he gets to appear to be the tough guy who mussels Mexico into compliance, and they'll forget about it by next week. Unfortunately, the auto industry doesn't have the luxury to possess such a short memory. An industry like that requires long-range planning, investment, and so benefits from predictability.

    And just like that he's going to renege on the trade agreement that he's been bragging about for months and hasn't even been ratified yet? A good deal maker should at least try to appear somewhat trustworthy.
  • ArguingWAristotleTiff
    3.6k
    The threat of placing tariffs on Mexican car imports, a year from now without compliance with his demands, is weird but maybe works for him?praxis

    A year from now? A year from now??? We don't have a big enough boat my friend. We are not going to make it a year at this rate without a preventable tragedy.
    The right balance may have been to refocus CBP at the ports of entry and only allow commercial vehicles across the border, that way they can be properly inspected for the detection of drugs that are coming in and reduce the damage that will be done on the economic stability of both countries.
    But he didn't do that.
    ~shaking my head~
    This is unsustainable, heartbreaking and no one else is speaking up. :broken:
  • praxis
    1.7k
    The right balance may have been to refocus CBP at the ports of entry and only allow commercial vehicles across the border, that way they can be properly inspected for the detection of drugs that are coming in and reduce the damage that will be done on the economic stability of both countries.ArguingWAristotleTiff

    Okay, say that we all started subscribing to the WH rhetoric, built a giant impenetrable concrete and steel border wall from sea to shining sea, and somehow managed to block all illegal drugs, guns, and gang members from entering the country from Mexico. Drug problem solved? Gang problem solved? Gun problem solved? Crime solved?

    It would have an effect of course but you must realize how politicized these issues are. If we really cared about American drug abuse, gang violence, gun control!?, and crime in general, is this really the best approach to effectively address it?
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