Fuck the U.S. — Michael

Get over it. You lost the war.

I think a casual N-word on tape just verifies what we already know, which is why I think it's ultimately going to be immaterial. — Benkei

Trump is racist? Shocking news!

That hypothetical political pitch was really good. I honestly think a message like that, if pitched in a tactful yet forceful way, may even appeal to some social conservatives - maybe 10-20%. Gotta appeal to their pride (to their "machismo") and make it clear that these corporations - who've infiltrated the political system to an excessive degree even under the supposed "outsider" Trump - do not care one bit about their children, their communities, their nation, their God, or anything they claim to hold dear. They need to see and feel that blatant injustice instead of focusing all their anger and frustration on the poor, on immigrants, etc. These huge corporations actively undercut everything they value in the world. Point blank.

That cultivated (but justified) resentment then needs to be channeled in a positive direction beyond gaining revenge on the super wealthy and privileged. Outline a vision for America that finally squares with its high ideals, one that remains true to the latent possibilities contained in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, one that appreciates business activity and the entrepreneurial spirit while also believing there are much higher things in life (again: family, community, God - traditional conservative values, right?) than a nation's GDP or a human being's net worth.

It'd be a tough balancing act but I do genuinely believe that an inspiring and semi-realistic narrative could be crafted which draws from the positive elements of both of conservatism and progressivism in a typically pragmatic, American fashion.

It has nothing to do with the left. If your president uses the N-word, he's a racist scumbag just the same as anyone who would come on this site and use it would be considered so, and he should be condemned by everyone no matter what their political persuasion. If you can't come out and say that, that 's your problem not the left's. Racism is not a left /right issue. As if any of us on the left wouldn't disown Clinton (or whoever) if she was taped using the N-word. The level of insanity of blaming the left's "character assassination" for your President using the N-word only reflects the fact that you think the right are a bunch of racists looking for scapegoats. Well, I'm sorry you have such a shitty view of your own side.

Incidentally, I thought one of the few positive developments of a Trump victory is that it created (or rather exposed) a rift between working class whites and their Ayn Randian and Milton Friedman-loving GOP overlords, who view them as useful idiots, as nothing more than malleable material. That's actually a pretty big development which will have an impact far beyond Trump's presidency. This group now realizes that the Paul Ryan's and the Bill Kristol's of the world never genuinely respected or cared about them.

Anyone who would vote for a racist is a racist, and fuck them. I don't believe that's close to fifty percent of Americans.

Even Sarah Sanders isn't denying he said it now, which suggests it's coming out soon. And if and when it does, it will be a moment to stand with Black Americans, not the racist. And again that should have nothing to do with left and right.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/14/donald-trump-n-word-cant-guarantee-777475

Anyone who would vote for a racist is a racist, and fuck them. I don't believe that's close to fifty percent of Americans. — Baden

By that token, everybody that already voted for Trump is a racist. Which quite obviously isn't the case. If you're white, then racism isn't a real problem to you. You're not the one experiencing it or affected by it. Why should it be a primary concern? Because you judge them harshly? Well, they'll just tell you to go fuck yourself right back Baden.

So far Hanover has indicated that if Democrats came up with good ideas and forward who he considers non-corrupt, he'd vote for them. Let's see where that takes us.

Glad you liked it. I'm a leftie as you know but I'm luckily not blind and deaf just yet. Taking the above forward, which Democratic candidates would you consider acceptable? What aspects would you consider "good ideas" of the following:

1. increased corporate tax (pay for what they use),
2. higher capital gains taxes (the Buffet Rule)
3. roll-back of recent tax cuts for the rich
4. repeal of Citizens United through legislation
5. universal healthcare
6. stricter environmental protection regulation
7. tax incentives for green initiatives (like duties on gas-guzzlers for instance)

By that token, everybody that already voted for Trump is a racist. — Benkei

Except you know that I mean someone who is unequivocally proven to be a racist. I shouldn't have to spell that out from the context.

Well, they'll just tell you to go fuck yourself right back Baden. — Benkei

So... what? What do I care what a bunch of racists think? In any case, I've already dismissed your analysis as wrong. Because Hanover thinks you're right doesn't make you right. If the N-word tape comes out, Trump won't be re-elected. You can quote me on that.

Thanks. I really do believe there is common cause for many people irrespective of left or right, conservative or progressive, with regard to certain social ills.

So... what? What do I care what a bunch of racists think? In any case, I've already dismissed your analysis as wrong. Because Hanover thinks you're right doesn't make you right. If the N-word tape comes out Trump won't be re-elected. — Baden

They're - by and large - not racist and you insisting that they are just makes you look silly and sound like a hysterical left-wing fairy. You dismissed my analysis based on an outcome you prefer. Nothing more than a gut feeling. The fact you can't seem to be able to entertain another view in this respect is interesting. I'm glad you take racism seriously but if outrage is all you have, you're not going to convince anybody on the other side of the aisle. You might think that isn't necessary but at the end of the day they're still your neighbours, colleagues and fellow countrymen (if you were American but this holds true anywhere in the world). Enjoy hating about 40% of the world population; I'd rather not.

I think Trump is a racist scumbag but I'd rather find out how to get typical GOP-voters to vote for me than hoping to win an election because the other side fucks up. It really is politically weak trying to win an election on the basis of the total incompeteness of the figurehead on the other side.

Were satellites involved? — Benkei

Mmm no. But my example was what happens in a rolling black out or a total outage power, the cascading affect it has on our nation. Losing our logistical control at the clip we are at now would cause a slow to a grind for a lot of our daily functions we take for granted.

I remember being on vacation on a beach in California with family when this happened. — Maw

When the outage took place on the East Coast? No better friend than the Pacific sunset at that point if you normally dwell in Manhattan. :up:

I have a friend who fell asleep and woke to the black out. He had friends in high rises that had to walk 30 flights of stairs to get in and out of their condo. He said it was the wildest of times to be on the street and it took him back to his childhood because everyone was outside as sweltering as it was inside.

Bunch of strawmans. I don't agree with your analysis therefore I don't think Americans (on the whole) will vote for a verified racist therefore I don't think they're racist. Get it?

Enjoy hating about 40% of the world population; I'd rather not. — Benkei

That would be 3 billion people. So, what are you talking about? I directed my comments towards the number of Americans who would vote for someone who used the N-word in a derogatory manner. No offence, but you're not making much sense.

Bunch of strawmans. I don't agree with your analysis therefore I don't think American's will vote for a verified racist therefore I don't think they're racist. Get it? — Baden

I'll spell it out for you.

I think many more people will vote for Trump even if he's a proven racist than you think but not because they're racist as you claim if they would. You'd condemn them for it. "Fuck them", as you put. You hope this isn't the case but that doesn't waylay my analysis in any way.

So on the basis of that, if I were right, then you'd go about proclaiming 40% of Americans would be racist, give or take. Yes? With me so far?

If someone votes for a candidate that is verified and unequivocally a racist or white nationalist or anti-semite or Nazi (or whatever), that makes them sympathetic to racism, white nationalism, anti-semitism or Naziism (or whatever). You might want to draw a distinction between being sympathetic to racism and being an actual racist. I take a more zero-tolerance view. So, yes, if 40% of Americans hypothetically voted for a hypothetical verified racist Trump (just as if they voted for David Duke) they would be sympathetic to racism and in my view racist to a degree (though not as racist as if they used the N-word themselves. There are levels of racism that start with thinking it's not such a bad thing and move all the way up to promoting it as an ideology).

And if you or anyone else doesn't like the fact that I have a strong dislike for racists and racist sympathizers, it's just tough cheese. All the ad-homs in the world aren't going to change me on that point.

Let's ask. Hey ArguingWAristotleTiff and @Hanover. Would you rule out voting for trump again if he has said the N-word? — Benkei

I think the safest way for me to answer such an absurd question is to use your knowledge expressed about what you already know to be the answer:

This is old news and known during election period. It's not going to change anything. People continue to surprise me when they think trump's behaviour is going to make him any less popular with his base. It's not going to happen. — Benkei

Nobody cares. — Benkei

Now, this one I will address. You are right, not only does nobody care, the somebodies of us that do care, got tired of jumping through hoops, putting our head in a Lion's mouth just to put food on our tables during the Obama administration.

Three out of the four members of my tribe are attending college which is a FANTASTIC feeling as we move forward in life. That one achievement, 3 of 4 in school represents two things that I would like you to understand. First it means that once again the small business sector is growing and NicK alone can provide for our family of 4 while we focus on learning AND the bittersweet fact that each of us students qualify for Pell Grants . Now, don't get me wrong, I have always supported the Pell Grants purpose, I just never thought me or my children would qualify for "The Pell Grant is a need-based financial aid for students who belong to lower income families. The Federal Government earmarks certain funds for this grant each year. The quantum of funds varies from year to year. The grants are disbursed to the eligible students from this fund. However, there are certain criteria that one must meet in order to be eligible for the grant."

So yeah, I care, I care a SHITLOAD about what is going on with our President and our country. Actions speak louder than words any day of the week and Benkei, the years of desperation under the Obama administration brought us and brought me to my knees. When my Mother In law's trunk loads of food, toiletries drew further apart and my pride hit rock bottom I was directed to the Bishop's Pantry at the Mormon church for food to put on my table. We had to dilute every investment IRA just to pay our mortgage, which for 18 months was more than 60 days delinquent, 6 that were 90 days late. We lost our curbside trash service because we couldn't afford the fee, which meant once a week for 7 years, I hauled our trash on a trailer to the local dump and let me tell you, it is a very humbling experience. We sold 21k dollars invested in our 3 horses for a single dollar because we could no longer feed them.

I am sorry, I DO have a LOT to care about.

If someone votes for a candidate that is verified and unequivocally a racist or white nationalist or anti-semite or Nazi (or whatever), that makes them sympathetic to racism, white nationalism, anti-semitism or Naziism (or whatever). You might want to draw a distinction between being sympathetic to racism and being an actual racist. I take a more zero-tolerance view. So, yes, if 40% of Americans hypothetically voted for a hypothetical verified racist Trump (just as if they voted for David Duke) they would be sympathetic to racism and in my view racist to a degree (though not as racist as if they used the N-word themselves. There are levels of racism that start with thinking it's not such a bad thing and move all the way up to promoting it as an ideology). — Baden

Ok, so let's say I'm anti-abortion and strictly religious. The racist Trump is anti-abortion but the Democrat is pro-abortion. I vote Trump. Racist or not? The candidates are not representing single issues. Attempts to reduce it to that is what results, in my view, in unrealistic expectations of voting behaviour by average Americans.

Or, I'm a laissez faire capitalist ideologue. Same question.

Or, I have my own business and can benefit from tax decreases. Am I supposed to vote against my self-interest because, besides the points I do like and want, the candidate is also a racist?

I'm sure that for some the racist thing will be major enough to abstain or vote Democrat, I just don't believe it is the case for that many people. In general, the first worry for most people is a job and stability. Everything else is secondary - even racism.

I'm not aware of any ad homs I made towards you. I don't disagree with judging racists accordingly but I do disagree a sort of judgment by association that you seem to suggest here. I'd condemn the Trumpian voters who voted only because of his racism but unfortunately I can't tell them apart from the rest.

The sad thing about that reply is that you seem to blame Obama and his administration for things caused by previous administrations (the last crisis was a deregulation bout under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush), tax breaks that benefitted no one but the already rich (Reagan, Bush, Bush) and military adventures that cost billions (Bush, Bush). So really, mostly the Republicans fault with their voodoo trickle-down economics.

The economic upturn that Trump is reaping the benefits of was already in full swing under Obama with better growth figures than now. But really that's besides the point, economic crises, up turns and down turns are largely unaffected by governmental action. Judging Presidents based on economic performance is simply misplaced.

At least, at the very least, Obama made healthcare affordable for people which gave many Americans one less thing to worry about while they were struggling to make a living. Trump is the asshole trying to take that away (and doing so by illegal means by the way, by ordering departments not to execute or frustrate legal obligations under the law!) so he and his rich buddies can pay less taxes.

EDIT: And he's a racist, that should count for something.

They're - by and large - not racist — Benkei

I hope you KNOW that in your heart of hearts about me because it is labels like "racist" that get applied so liberally on this thread that make it feel very unsafe to discuss what is really going on, above the fray and noise of the "Gotcha of the day".

I am starting to understand why others have drifted away when the labels start being applied.

Ok, so let's say I'm anti-abortion and strictly religious. The racist Trump is anti-abortion but the Democrat is pro-abortion. I vote Trump. Racist or not? The candidates are not representing single issues. Attempts to reduce it to that is what results, in my view, in unrealistic expectations of voting behaviour by average Americans. — Benkei

I get the point but my answer would be simple, you abstain or vote for a third party. In that way you neither support abortion or racism. (Note that in most states your vote would not have a hope in hell of having any practical effect anyway and it wouldn't be anything more than an expression of principle).

Or, I have my own business and can benefit from tax decreases. Am I supposed to vote against my self-interest because, besides the points I do like and want, the candidate is also a racist? — Benkei

That's no different in principle to saying if someone offers me 1000 bucks to call someone a nigger or to support someone else calling someone a nigger, do I do it because it's in my self-interest? No, I don't because a more important part of my self-interest than money is a basic level of moral integrity. I mean nothing angelic, just basic. If someone can't even get to that level, they're screwed.

In general, the first worry for most people is a job and stability. Everything else is secondary - even racism. — Benkei

Realistically, neither party is going to destroy any class of people financially. If it were a case of the only way to prevent Venezuela-style socialism was to vote for a racist Trump, I might be more sympathetic. But both parties are democratic, so there's no huge forseeable crisis to be avoided for voting for either that would justify throwing dignity in the trash can.

At least, at the very least, Obama made healthcare affordable for people which gave many Americans one less thing to worry about while they were struggling to make a living. Trump is the asshole trying to take that away (and doing so by illegal means by the way, by ordering departments not to execute or frustrate legal obligations under the law!) so he and his rich buddies can pay less taxes. — Benkei

Obama Care: To which our premium was $2,500 a month for a family of 4 with an annual deducible of $5,000 per person up to a total of $20,000 out of pocket before the policy were to cover 80% of any approved procedures. VS the crap shoot of paying a tax penalty for not purchasing a product and paying cash for all medical, dental, psyche and chiro visits.

EDIT: And he's a racist, that should count for something. — Benkei

How much should that "count"?

I know. At the same time I think voting for Trump was and will be a mistake on every level that matters: justice, fairness and equity. He's the antithesis of that. He's already harming US industries with his tariffs using your tax money to cover the losses.

That's no different in principle to saying if someone offers me 1000 bucks to call someone a nigger or to support someone else calling someone a nigger, do I do it because it's in my self-interest? No, I don't because a more important part of my self-interest than money is a basic level of moral integrity. I mean nothing angelic, just basic. If someone can't even get to that level, they're screwed. — Baden

On a personal level I'm on board with you with this but then I'm pretty comfortable financially and socially. I can't say I'd judge others for a different valuation if they are in different circumstances (much worse) but I'd judge them if they were in similar circumstances.

Obama Care: To which our premium was $2,500 a month for a family of 4 with an annual deducible of $5,000 per person up to a total of $20,000 out of pocket before the policy were to cover 80% of any approved procedures. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

And what was it before that and how was it for everybody else? It's rather difficult to assess this as a counterargument against the system as a whole.

The problem may lie, for instance, in the fact that it simply isn't universal. Dutch premiums are about 1500 USD per adult per year, children are free up to 18. Deductible is 0 for children, about 400 USD per year. That covers basic medical care, visits to the general practitioneer are free (no deductible) and all the life-threatening stuff is covered, even abroad if you need care there immediately (with deductible but only up to Dutch rates, so you're screwed in Switzerland and the US for instance). Dental plans, fysiotherapy and alternative medicine are covered under an elective regime that's entirely free-market. We don't have the best system in the world but it ranked 5th in 2017 in the world.

So, just imagine the piece of mind I can have if I'm in an accident. No medical bills and no worry I'll lose my job (firing during illness is illegal). It's why I find a 52% income tax acceptable.

I don't think we disagree all that much then except in terms of the tone I took and in terms of defintions. I'll summarize my view by saying that no decent human being (of my estimation) would vote for a racist (of the degree we discussed) except out of absolute desperation (e.g. threat of immediate financial ruin etc.), and I don't see that applying to the vast majority of Americans on either side. Selling out a whole group in society for some petty gain in taxes or whatever may not be unequivocally racist, I'll concede that, it might just be pure opportunism, but it would still be despicable and I would feel just as negatively towards anyone who would do that whether you call them racist or not. But again, it's hypothetical as Trump hasn't been proved as yet to be a racist in the sense the supposed tapes depict.

(And I emphasize again this applies to whatever politician and voter of whatever side. It just seems a lot less likely that it would come from a Dem. But it could).

How much should that "count"? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Enough for other GOP-members to refuse to nominate Trump as their candidate for the next election. But in fact, that should've been the case in the previous election already. How do you influence who gets nominated as a regular voter?

Dutch premiums are about 1500 USD per adult per year, children are free up to 18. Deductible is 0 for children, about 400 USD per year. That covers basic medical care, visits to the general practitioneer are free (no deductible) and all the life-threatening stuff is covered, even abroad if you need care there immediately (with deductible but only up to Dutch rates, so you're screwed in Switzerland and the US for instance). Dental plans, fysiotherapy and alternative medicine are covered under an elective regime that's entirely free-market. We don't have the best system in the world but it ranked 5th in 2017 in the world. — Benkei

UK premiums are £0 and deductibles are £0.

And according to this, in 2017 we're 1st for equity and care process, 3rd for access and efficiency, 10th for health care outcome (although "experiencing the fastest reduction in deaths amenable to health care in the past decade"), and 1st overall.



You came 3rd. You undersold Dutch healthcare.

Here's the important bit on that page in my view. Americans pay twice as much for a healthcare system that is significantly worse than most developed countries. And no, Trump is not going to change that, @ArguingWAristotleTiff. The only ones who will are those espousing single payer healthcare, which is what all those countries who spend less than you on healthcare and have better outcomes use.

I know. At the same time I think voting for Trump was and will be a mistake on every level that matters: justice, fairness and equity. He's the antithesis of that. He's already harming US industries with his tariffs using your tax money to cover the losses. — Benkei

The alternative was not going to change anything either. ACA aka Obama Care was dead before it was ever implemented. The entire system has been upended and all of the medical community that COULD get under the umbrella of a for profit mega merger hospital, did. There is no way to unravel this cluster fuck of a medical system now. I do have some experience in the medical billing and insurance reimbursements and I can tell you that Obama Care dis jointed our health care system.

So, just imagine the piece of mind I can have if I'm in an accident. No medical bills and no worry I'll lose my job (firing during illness is illegal). It's why I find a 52% income tax acceptable. — Benkei

I need not imagine as I see my children leaving America for the Netherlands and New Zealand for the peace of mind you are reporting. Again, actions speak louder than words and in this case their actions of relocating to another country, speak louder than my words of "I love you" ever could.

It's actually depressing as fuck but that's for me to handle.