If Trump is caught saying the N-word on tape, Americans will care (and there's little doubt he said it now. One of his spin doctors, Katrina Pierson, is on Omarosa's latest tape saying he did and discussing how to "spin" it). Of course, his rabid anti-*immigrant white nationalist base won't care, but they don't make up more than twenty of the forty percent who support him. The other twenty won't like it and he only needs to lose a small percentage of those to become unelectable.

*Before someone says they're only anti-illegal immigrant, I refer you to Laura Ingraham of Fox News who has let the cat out of the bag on that one in a recent racist video where she talked about fighting the "demographic" changes caused by illegal and legal immigration. "Demographic" as in too many non-whites who are now threatening to make whites a minority. This echoes Nazi and white nationalist propaganda, which is why David Duke of KKK fame and other racists responded so positively calling it:

"One of the most important (truthful) monologues in the history of [mainstream media] MSM"."

https://www.thedailybeast.com/david-duke-praises-laura-ingrahams-anti-immigrant-rant-one-of-the-most-important-monologues-in-history

So, a lot of racist sentiment in the US, both overt and covert, but the vast majority of Americans are not going to go with the overt stuff (as Maw pointed out), so despite the efforts of Trump's base and Trump himself in taking it mainstream, it will never get there. Apart from anything else, it's bad for business.

https://www.businessinsider.com/laura-ingrahams-advertisers-respond-to-racist-comments-2018-8

Trump supporters seem to me the least philosophical people on the face of the planet... Worse than evangelicals.

Yeah, the goose is cooked. That's all folks.

Midterms on the way and I can't imagine Trump passing anything or getting a break after a sweep by Dems.

If Trump is caught saying the N-word on tape, Americans will care (and there's little doubt he said it now. — Baden

Let's ask. Hey @ArguingWAristotleTiff and @Hanover. Would you rule out voting for trump again if he has said the N-word? The democratic candidate would be Pocahontas.

Speaking of Pocahontas

that's gobbledegook I'm afraid.

Well, seeing as neither of them is racist, I'm pretty sure if Trump is on tape proving himself a racist they would at the very least abstain or vote third party otherwise they would be supporting racism, but OK, they can speak for themselves.

If it didn't show... Doesn't the villain of the animated Pocahontas movie look like Rene Descartes?

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This is old news and known during election period. It's not going to change anything. People continue to surprise me when they think trump's behaviour is going to make him any less popular with his base. It's not going to happen. — Benkei

I think a large part of the reason for this is that many of his most ardent supporters don't see a viable alternative. The "other side" feels nothing but contempt for them and what they hold dear - for their patriotism, for their religious beliefs, for their lack of culture and sophistication, etc.

Less charitably (some would argue more accurately), one could say that they cling to their racism, sexism, xenophobia and the like, and that the Left should isolate and shame this group rather than reach out and try to connect with them.

Whatever the case, this demographic serves as the necessary "enemy" which the "friends" of all that's good and just and decent in the world must rally against. Politics as theology (Carl Schmitt?).

Well, seeing as neither of them is racist, I'm pretty sure if Trump is on tape proving himself a racist they would at the very least abstain or vote third party otherwise they would be supporting racism, but OK, they can speak for themselves. — Baden

Or they trust in the checks and balances, accept the racism considering the lurch to the right we've already seen it's only a small step. The putative racism is increasingly emphasised "why can't you see trump is bad" by the hysterical left and trump will just repeat as nauseum "I'm not a racist". The thing is, except for a very narrow part of his base, everyone is already aware of trump's lack of morals. They don't care. Check his approval ratings among republicans. When they vote for trump, they don't vote for him, they vote for the Republican candidate, against Democrats, for deregulation, anti-abortion etc. Racism isn't going to be a defining element in the election because the US already is a pretty racist country to begin with.

The Democrats are not going to win by pointing out trump is a piece of shit. That was a given in the previous election and they lost.

The Democrats are not going to win by pointing out trump is a piece of shit. That was a given in the previous election and they lost. — Benkei

If only, but, now the point is actually apparent and real.

I agree. You put it better than I do and my "the US is a pretty racist country" it's probably my own bias as I associate it with the stereotypical dungaree-wearing, pitchfork wielding, patriotic, church-going redneck. You can thank the Simpsons for that and their character Cletus.

Omarosa and Jack are lying pieces of shit. What proof? A venal vixen and a disgruntled ex employee?

Dems already won the popular vote, and it only takes a few percent to swing things, and at the very least a few percent of his supporters aren't going to vote for a proven racist. Also, Republicans only make up about 20% of the electorate—most are independents, and if even 10% of independents switch sides compared to the last election, he's toast. Conclusion, if Trump is caught on tape using the N-word, he's finished in terms of chances at the next election. That hasn't happened yet. But if he does, he is. America is not that racist and not that tolerant of racism. It's not a different planet, Benkei. Give them some credit.

Omarosa and Jack are lying pieces of shit — Benkei

The tapes back up Omarosa's version of events concerning her firing and prove it was the White House who lied about it. Not that she's trustworthy, but if she has the evidence, that's not important.

Trump supporters are the most non-philosophical people.

But if he does, he is. America is not that racist and notthat tolerant of racism. It's not a different planet, Benkei. Give them some credit. — Baden

We thought that with Bush the first time and his reelection. We thought that about trump the first time and let's make the same mistake again shall we? What you're missing is that people tend not to vote for a person but in accordance with their identity. Political denomination in the US is a part of personal identity and in the case of the republicans strongly associated with working class morals, social conservatism, patriotism. Democrats are for pansies, haughty academics and unpatriotic because if the US doesn't tell other countries what to do it's just weakness.

If the Democrats want to win all they need is a God-fearing veteran turned rural farmer to run for president who goes to church every day and will proclaim he'll bomb the shit out of terrorists and rebrand themselves accordingly.

No you're just taking things too far and applying stereotypes to the whole country. As If Trump could put on a KKK hat and declare Hitler's birthday a national holiday and everything would be fine because after all we were wrong about Bush and Trump's first election. No, there's a certain point where cynicism descends into parody.

Thanks, Benkei.

The racist element is obviously there among many Trump supporters, there's no denying this, but I also think there's more to it than that, although I'd be hard-pressed to pinpoint exactly what "it" is other than my previous comments concerning the way they feel about the alternative. For example, I have many Latino friends (mainly Facebook "friends" I went to HS with) who support Trump and despise the Left. These are people who (generally speaking) grew up in the suburbs of Los Angeles and who've assimilated their identify completely with the culture - not sure if that's the right word to use - of this part of the United States: flag-waving, church-going, football-watching, police-supporting, etc.

Surprisingly, even some Latinos who are more closely connected with their native culture support him. My wife's family are relatively recent immigrants from Mexico who grew up in predominately Mexican-American neighborhoods. And a few of her cousins are enthusiastic Trump supporters. I don't want to mislead here: most of the family members despise Trump and recognize that he's attempted to demonize them. But the exceptions are interesting.

No you're just taking things too far and applying stereotypes to the whole country. As If Trump could put on a KKK hat and declare Hitler's birthday a national holiday and everything would be fine because after all we were wrong about Bush and Trump's first election. No, there's a certain point where cynicism descends into parody. — Baden

I think this is a good point. I know each side tends to caricature the other but once again I think it's more complex than those manipulated images. There's definitely some truth to Benkei's stereotypes about average Trump supporters - as I outlined in my previous post - but the idea that they're all KKK supporters or white nationalists is wrong. At least in my experience - things may be much different in the Midwest or Deep South.

Full disclosure: I'm the only non-Republican in my immediate family (family gatherings are rough). All three of my sisters voted for Trump and seem pretty content with the job he's doing. They've all married non-whites - we apparently have a thing for Mexicans - and none of them are at all sympathetic to notions of white supremacy. They do however hold somewhat ignorant views (imo) on things like the country's past and what would be the best economic system for working class people. This biographical detail partly explains why I will never demonize all Trump supporters; I'm admittedly biased on an emotional level.

There are genuinely decent human beings - hardworking, compassionate, etc. - who support Trump and who are not racists or otherwise evil. Deluded in some ways? Ignorant of the nation's past and present? I'm biased of course but I'd say yes, absolutely. I'm not suggesting that all Trump supporters are ignorant (e.g. Tiff, Hanover, and Agustino are intelligent and well-educated), but that simplistic view of the nation and the world more generally does seem to prevail among many rank and file Republicans, and it's always seemed that way to me. It seems they're more susceptible to the "noble lies" or "founding myths" or whatever they're called.

Anyhow, just wanted to throw that out there.

Yeah, and pretty much all my brother-in-law's relatives voted for Trump and they're nice regular people who I've met and liked (mostly) and I'm convinced that a good number of them have a line of decency that they would draw and verified N-word use would be a bridge too far.

No you're just taking things too far and applying stereotypes to the whole country. As If Trump could put on a KKK hat and declare Hitler's birthday a national holiday and everything would be fine because after all we were wrong about Bush and Trump's first election. No, there's a certain point where cynicism descends into parody. — Baden

I'm sure there is some limit and the above is more of a parody than anything I've written. And the point I'm making is not a result of general cynicism. I'm cynical about any approach trying to bank on Trump's purported racism and for reasons I've given I think people don't vote as much for the person as you think they would. As stated, rightly or wrongly, the Republicans have a certain political image that a lot of Americans more readily identify with than the Democrats. I think the Republican party in itself is hijacked by a strain of irresponsible voodoo economics and xenophobes, or at least, no longer has the moral backbone to stand up to the type of nonsense Trump represents.

Meanwhile, the Democrats don't have a real narrative. They stand for tax increases, redistribution, pro-abortion, that discrimination thing that whites always get blamed for. Bernie Sanders had a narrative but it wasn't shared widely by the paid up and corporate shills that make up the majority of both parties. I'm also very hesistant to predict whether sufficient number of Americans would support a "socialist" if he managed to get the Democratic nomination.

I was, however, deadly serious with my Democratic character for the ideal presidential candidate. If it's about winning votes, you need to undermine the Republican narrative by making it your own to the point it can still be reconciled with whatever ideals you really hold. That isn't too hard, since it's mostly imagery. Then you need a consistent narrative that doesn't have any nuance.

One subject I'd consider in that respect is that of caring. The State stopped caring when it took money from the corporations, the corporations stopped caring long before that. I'd run on a platform of "power to you" and how to empower the average US citizen both economically and politically. So that's working together for a common goal; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Maybe something like this:

"Companies are the lifeblood of the American economy. Yet they have a darkside too.

Datacompanies have taken away ourprivacy and sold it to the highest bidder. Often that buyer has been the government. The same government that refuses to pass legislation to protect you. No more. Privacy is not the enemy of the economy.

Energy companies, heavy industry and mining have stolen our clean air, clean water, forests and the lands we live in in a manner that is not sustainable. They are slowly killing our children and our children's children. The government has not protected the environment, the air we breath, the water we drink, the forests we walk in and the lands we live in. No more. Sustainability is no the enemy of the economy.

Salaries have stagnated while the rich get richer. How come when you actually create something of value you make a fraction of the CEO, who's really no more than a glorified paper pusher? Talk about a sense of entitlement. I don't know about you but unless you invent the cure for cancer, I don't see why anyone should be making millions for phones you didn't design, didn't build and didn't invent. It seems to me the inventor, designer and assembly worker are doing all the real work.

And when the economy slumps you're fired at will and out of a job but the CEO gets a severance pay check? Where's the fairness in that? A captain ought to go down with the ship but as the CEO makes the decisions, the actual risks are borne by you and the shareholders. Meanwhile, the modest bakery on the corner is crisis-proof. It takes a lot of cash and an education to really mess things up for a lot of people. No more. Fairness and equity are not the enemy of the economy.

The banks have stolen our money. Taxes meant for governmental programs were used to bail them out because they took too many risks. The government refuses to regulate them properly and the banks haven't paid back a cent. No more. justice isn't the enemy of the economy.

All companies use our roads, our trains, our power grids, our land, our justice system. It's time they pay the appropriate rent when they pay but a fraction compared to the income tax we have to pay. No more. Taxation isn't the enemy of the economy.

The grip of corporations through donations on our political process means laws that should be passed aren't passed. Corruption runs through the political system at every level. Politics by the people for the people simply no longer exists. No more. Democracy isn't the enemy of the economy.

If you elect me, I say "no more". I will force companies to work in such a way that in their pursuit for profit and economic gain, that everybody benefits, that they pay their fair share for the goods and services that they receive from wider society, that they pay back debts owed to society, that they maintain and improve the world we live in and that they respect our rights and treat us with respect. I will wrest the economic and political control they have over our democratic system and return power to those that actually matter: we, the people."

So yeah, I'm not cynical at all. :wink:

I agree with most of your analysis and I'm all aboard with your description of the economy. Our only disagreement then, seeing as you concede that there is a line, is where it is. I say verified N-word tape, and you say... well you haven't specified, but something more. What then? You tell me.

I say verified N-word tape, and you say... well you haven't specified, but something more. What then? You tell me. — Baden

I think a casual N-word on tape just verifies what we already know, which is why I think it's ultimately going to be immaterial. Plus, we're rolling from one outrage to the next, and that just means we're getting inoculated. To give you an idea, here's some Breitbart comments on this issue:

I don't care what he says, I care about what he does. The economy is my main concern.

No one with a brain gives a flyin' deuce what a man with 50 years of billionaire accomplishments has ever said, or will ever say. Actions have always trumped Trump's words. Always will.

They are doctoring a tape as we speak. They won't be able to produce it in enough time before the election to enable this 'tape' to be analysed and proven to be a fake !!!

And it goes on and on and on...

Tellingly, the Wall Street Journal (as right leaning a mainstream newspaper I can find) simply doesn't mention the N-word at all. It doesn't exist to them.

So, what would probably make him a no-go would be something like active racism such as "I'm going to fire him because he's a n*****". Something like that as opposed to "There's n***** everywhere in compton".

So, what would probably make him a no-go would be something like active racism such as "I'm going to fire him because he's a n*****". Something like that as opposed to "There's n***** everywhere in compton". — Benkei

I've always wondered about the purpose of using asterisks to "hide" offensive words. We all know what you're saying. Is it somehow less offensive if some of the letters are replaced with symbols?

I do it out of respect for what seems to be the norm on a forum with a strong US presence as seems to be the case here (When in Rome...). On a Dutch forum I wouldn't.

I do it out of respect for what seems to be the norm on a forum with a strong US presence as seems to be the case here (When in Rome...). — Benkei

Well, it's hosted in the UK and controlled by a Scottish guy living in Spain. Fuck the U.S.

Making friends I see?

I like Benkei's analysis on the topic.

One thing I'd add is that the left has no perspective on how morally bankrupt and hypocritical the right thinks it is. That is, the right does not see Hillary or Obama as better people than Trump.

This tape, whatever it might show, will be no more damaging than the pussy grabbing tape. The left needs a new strategy that focuses on something other than character assassination. It doesn't work. It might just be that issues matter more than character. Want a knock out blow? Come up with some good ideas. How is that a redneck viewpoint?

What this tape might do is further limit the effectiveness of polling data, causing more people to misstate who they'll vote for.