• BenMcLean
    101
    Many people want to discard the left-right distinction as a way to understand politics. Most of them are ignorant of what it means and that ignorance usually explains them. Discarding the prevailing schema sounds sophisticated, making the speaker sound wiser than ideologues caught up in tribalism. But all the "That's just like your opinion man" rhetoric actually does is dismiss clear thinking in favor of being shallow and uninformed by history. Clear thinking requires categories and definitions: ideally Aristotelian definitions.

    Aristotle's definition of definition prescribes that an adequate definition will have two things: genus and species. While these are where the modern taxonomical terms come from, what Aristotle meant by them does not align with their usage in modern taxonomy, just as an "atom" cannot be split by definition, so that the act of splitting a so-called "atom" proves that it was never an "atom" to begin with because it can be split. It would be within reason to argue that any physicists claiming they have "split the atom" are just stupid and wrong no matter their practical results because "splitting the atom" is a contradiction in terms since any child can understand that an atom is defined as that which cannot be split.

    What happened was that we got used to calling non-atoms by the name "atom" and didn't want to change their name even after we discovered, by splitting them, that we had always been wrong to have ever thought that they were ever true "atoms." A similar thing happened with "genus" and "species". They became part of a much larger taxonomical system which no longer resembles their original usage so that their original meaning faded away over time. I intend to revive their original ancient meaning here.

    For Aristotle, the "genus" part of a definition must answer the question, "What kind of thing is it?" and the "species" part of a definition must answer the question, "What makes it different from other similar things?" It takes both to have a clear definition, which is one of the checks for whether you're thinking clearly about any given thing. Being unable to give an Aristotelian definition is a strong indicator that your thinking about a thing is unclear.

    Unlike with the terms of atoms, genus or species, the definitions of the political left and right have actually stayed very, very consistent across time since their 18th century origins, despite extreme changes in governmental structure and geopolitical environment. They are clear, centuries-old tried, tested and battle hardened categories which very few, if any, policy frameworks ever manage to escape.

    The terms “left” and “right” in politics originated with the French National Assembly during the French Revolution in 1789. The two opposing viewpoints physically sat together on opposite sides of the room and this physical seating arrangement is what gave rise to the political categorization used globally ever since. Thus, “left” and “right” were never a metaphor: the origin of these terms were instead completely literal and physical. The competing rumor that the terms originate from the apostles James and John sitting at Jesus’s left and right hands in the gospel according to Matthew is simply untrue. These are very modern, very political categories, not ancient religious ones.

    The original right wing were the supporters of the French monarchy and the original left wing were the supporters of the French revolution. Since we don’t see our current political options as having an all-powerful king versus indiscriminately chopping people’s heads off, one might suppose that the left wing and right wing categories would no longer be relevant. But that would be a ridiculously shallow reading of the competing philosophies involved in that political moment.

    What descends to us from 1789 is the idea that those on the Right side of the political spectrum are traditionalists who think of the past as good and of the tendency of the present to be negative, while those on the Left side of the political spectrum are progressives who think of the past as bad and of the tendency of the present to be positive. Thus, right wing and left wing do not connote any specific policies. They are instead descriptors of how the ideology or framework views itself in relation to political history.

    So Left and Right have a shared genus: they each refer to meta-narratives concerning large scale political history. At the same time, they are separate species: where the Right specifically thinks of the past as good while the Left specifically thinks of the past as bad.

    Some confusion often arises in international contexts because Left and Right are regionally and historically relative -- especially the Right. The ideas of the conservative movement or right wing of any particular country are always grounded in the specific local history of that country and do not reflect on right wing movements anywhere else in the world because every country is different. So if, for instance, an American right wing conservative condemns the right wing conservative movement within a Muslim country, that's not a contradiction because those two movements have absolutely nothing whatsoever in common except in the abstract and indirect way that they're both grounded in the local history of their respective country. Calling them both "conservative" in order to suggest that they are somehow linked to one another goes beyond the usefulness of the framework. They are each “right wing” or “conservative” only by being linked with the specific history of their particular region, not by being linked with each other.

    In contrast, there is often some degree of connection between left wing movements globally. In the 20th century, this was largely through the International Communist Party, (although there were plenty of Leftists unwilling to admit any Communist ties in the latter half of the 20th century) but after the fall of the Soviet Union, this connection has either ceased or become much less formal.

    The historical relativism of left vs right is also significant. Ideas which were left wing when they were new, if they succeed, always inevitably become right wing ideas later on when they become old.

    Critically, the strength of the Left vs Right schema is that it does not prejudice the discourse or insult either side. It allows for acknowledging shared facts across the ideological lines without controversial evaluations. This, in turn, provides a shared set of common premises upon which political arguments can be based. Those demanding to discard the schema generally do not provide any new alternate schema to replace it, so that what they are really against isn’t “outdated” political categories from 1789 but is instead usually a rejection of clear thinking itself.

    However, a major exception would be proposals for alternate or complementary schema which retain the benefits of the Left vs Right schema of being clear, non-insulting and constructive while allowing for more precision and nuance. We shouldn’t be forever chained to 1789 as the sole criteria for political thought for no reason, but we should be constrained by the principle of Chesterton’s Fence: “Do not remove a fence until you know why it was put up in the first place.” This conservative principle is so inherently reasonable that even the most progressive thinker who wants to tear down every fence in existence should still be able to accept it.

    Also, now that we know why we have this schema from the above explanation, it should be obvious why we need a schema like this. No matter their flaws, Left and Right will and should persist in our language and our thinking until a superior schema is available to replace them.

    Note: I have not read H.J. Eysenck's The Psychology of Politics (1963) and Samuel Brittan's Left or Right: The Bogus Dilemma (1968) which the Googling I have done to write this essay indicates that I should be reading if I want to eventually turn it into a better researched, more polished paper. I see this post as soliciting feedback on an early draft.
  • NOS4A2
    10.2k


    In my opinion the left/right political spectrum is largely hokum. The idea in English is little more than the 20th century exaggeration of Thomas Carlyle’s loose accounting of the The Constituent Assembly in revolutionary France, a time and place so unrelated to here and now that one is forced to wonder at its significance.

    If one looks hard enough he can witness the lights go out precisely when these distinctions are used. The spectrum, for example, as linear as it is, may aid in self-serving expediency, but only to absolve one from spending the effort to learn about others. Speaking of ignorant, that’s why the function of these ideas is that of social categorization, the process through which some people organize their thoughts and beliefs about a myriad of other people, while at the same time remaining wholly ignorant about them.

    Maybe worst of all is the tendency to create divisions and affinities between human beings where none exist, as if each of us were still looking for our seats in the National Assembly. It isn’t long before people who have never met, nor have had any opportunity to judge the merits of their compatriots and enemies, each of them individually, are walking arm-in-arm in “solidarity” against an equally as uninformed group.

    As for a schema, I much prefer Carlyle’s original accounting:



    There is a Right Side ( Côté Droit ), a Left Side ( Côté Gauche ); sitting on M. le President’s right hand, or on his left: the Côté Droit conservative; the Côté Gauche destructive.

    - The French Revolution: A History

    This account puts nearly every political ideology of today within the conservative camp, and rightfully so, because the goal of each is to grasp the reigns of power, hold on to them as long as possible, and steer it to this and that end. All of them seek to maintain the servile hierarchy of those who have power and those who do not. In this they are the same, in instinct, goal, and action. The destructive ideologies, rather, are those that would see the reigns of power fall and that we live without them. Statism versus anti-statism, conservative versus destructive, would be a superior schema in my opinion.
  • Tzeentch
    4.4k
    Conservatives should logically occupy the center. What you describe as conservatives are actually reactionary. However, reactionary and progressive really are two sides of the same coin - they both want to see a significantly different society - whether they base themselves on 'old' or 'new' ideas isn't really an important distinction.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    Conservatives should logically occupy the center. What you describe as conservatives are actually reactionary. However, reactionary and progressive really are two sides of the same coin - they both want to see a significantly different society.Tzeentch
    I meant to define "Left" and "Right" and not to adjudicate conservative vs reactionary or progressive vs radical. The Left-Right schema as described here does not actually make a ruling on what the past was actually like: it instead describes how political ideologies view the past.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    I am planning a second part to this essay which will deal with the Political Compass's second axis. For now, I can say that your fringe anarchism is not half of any axis but will instead be a tiny extreme margin in any useful schema or chart.
  • NOS4A2
    10.2k


    A second axis? is it going to be named Up/Down? Top/Bottom? Can't wait to read it.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    A second axis? is it going to be named Up/Down? Top/Bottom? Can't wait to read it.NOS4A2
    My argument there, instead of defending the current second axis, will be to advocate for changing it, at least nominally, to a more useful one.
  • BC
    14.2k
    Good OP.

    I use "left" and "right" as sometimes somewhat useful terms, less to describe than to 'place' very general political 'positions', persons, or 'groups'.

    Political discourse would be impossible if left and right were the only terms that we had at hand. Some individuals politicians and groups are authoritarian or libertarian to some degree. Some are pro-socialist, others pro-capitalist, often measured in degrees. There are internationalists and nationalists. Some are religious partisans, some are secularists, and so on.

    I would much prefer that politics would fit into nicely defined boxes, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Or the old box labels are often wrong.

    How does one map "Democrat" and "Republican" onto other dichotomies? Are these two party names any more helpful than left/right, liberal/conservative?

    One can call a plague on both their houses, IF one sets up one's position outside the usual arrangement. Communists, actual socialists, libertarians, and so on can do that, because in the United States at least, they are politically irrelevant. I know this from experience as a socialist. We may be 100% correct and virtuous, but we we don't win elections, and we don't have any power. So mostly nobody cares about what we say. True, some Democratic Socialists have won some local elections, lately. It remains to be seen how their office-holding will work out.
  • hypericin
    2.1k


    I think you completely misread the meaning of left and right. It has next to nothing to do with loving the past or the present.

    Nor is the meaning of the right culturally relative. The right favors and serves the elite, in practice if not always in rhetoric. This can come in two forms: the reactionary right, which services the existing elite. And the revolutionary right, which aims to dominate it completely replace the existing elite. This is coupled with cultural conservatism: this is not a preference for the past as such. Rather, it is a preference for an idea of the cultural past, coupled with the notion that this cultural ideal ought to be predominant. The more radical the right, the more hallucinatory this idea can be.

    Notice that this explains the incompatibility of the Western and Muslim right wings. While both favor the elites, these are not the same elites. And while both promote their brands of cultural conversatism, these are not compatible, especially as they both incorporate fundamentalist versions of their religions.

    Whereas, the left favors and serves the broad population, in rhetoric if not always in practice. Instead of upholding an idealized past, the left relishes revising established cultural tradition, if they believe the revision serves a positive ideological outcome.
  • AmadeusD
    4.3k
    Nor is the meaning of the right culturally relative. The right favors and serves the elite, in practice if not always in rhetoric.hypericin

    Hmm.. I am quite unsure this is the case. I think this is the caricature of the right/conservatism. But I also know, for sure, that supporting elites is at least a reckless by product of most right-wing policy that would otherwise be probably quite uncontroversial.
  • hypericin
    2.1k
    I can't come up with any counterexamples.
  • Questioner
    591
    where the Right specifically thinks of the past as good while the Left specifically thinks of the past as bad.BenMcLean

    This position is not grounded in the research. I suggest you read The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt

    Rather, whether you lean to the Left or the Right of the political spectrum is determined by your moral framework – which determines the moral foundations of your politics.

    In Chapter 6 of his book, Haidt lays out these five foundations of morality –

    1. Care < > Harm
    2. Fairness < > Cheating
    3. Loyalty < > Betrayal
    4. Authority < > Subversion
    5. Sanctity < > Degradation

    In Chapter 7, he concludes (based on research) that the two ends of the political spectrum – Left/Right – rely upon each foundation in different ways, or to different degrees –

    The Left relies primarily on the Care and Fairness foundations

    The Right uses all five foundations.

    ***

    Highly recommended reading.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    The right favors and serves the elitehypericin
    This is self-serving Leftist rhetoric, trying to redefine the terms in a way that's complimentary to the Left and insulting to the Right. A major strength of the model I have outlined is that it does not do this -- in either direction.

    As for a counterexample to your claim that the Right serves the elite, take immigration. Mass immigration is slave importation, which is being done with the specific intent to drive down labor costs (wages and benefits) in order to serve the elite. So, on this issue, we have the Left serving the elite. Or this argument is at the very least within the realm of rational discussion, which the definitions of Left and Right should not be interfering with by pre-judging.

    Common terms should build bridges that make meaningful debate and negotiation possible. That's what they're for: not to score points for your own side.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    This position is not grounded in the research. I suggest you read The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan HaidtQuestioner

    Haidt is attempting to psychologize the motivations behind political ideology. I'm merely categorizing political ideologies by content. While I do not go out of my way to endorse Haidt in the points I make here, I see these endeavors as attempting to explain different things and so as potentially compatible rather than definitely incompatible.

    Also, Haidt's argument pre-supposes Left and Right as coherent categories so that he even can psychologize their motivations. He can't do that without first defining them as a basic assumption for, and not a result of, his research.
  • Questioner
    591
    I'm merely categorizing political ideologies by content.BenMcLean

    Well, no when you state -

    where the Right specifically thinks of the past as good while the Left specifically thinks of the past as bad.
    — BenMcLean
    Questioner

    - you are entering the realm of motivations, and I suggest what you state here is wrong. Not only is it inaccurate, it presents as prejudicial.

    Besides, I am not sure how you would separate motivations to ascribe to an ideology from the ideology itself.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    you are entering the realm of motivationsQuestioner
    That's not motivation because it doesn't get into why they think of the past as good or bad. Those are conclusions, not motivations for the conclusions.

    My model just says, "Here's what they think" and then Haidt can come along and say, "Here's why they think that" without a total flat irreconcilable contradiction as far as I know. But I must confess that, while I was aware of "The Righteous Mind" before today, I only got a "cliff notes" summary of Haidt rather than reading the book for myself so he may be bolder than I am aware of.
  • hypericin
    2.1k
    A major strength of the model I have outlined is that it does not do this -- in either direction.BenMcLean

    Even handedness is not a strength of a model that is supposed to be rooted in fact.

    immigrationBenMcLean

    I was asking for a right wing party or government that is oriented toward popular, not elite interest, not an individual policy. Seeing the immigration policy of our present government through this lens would be bizarrely incongruous with their other policies. As I'm sure you know, this is the wrong lens.

    Which leads to another very consistent feature of the right wing: outgrouping. By the nature of the right, they have little of substance to offer to the general population. The right therefore offers "protection", from the dangerous external enemy, and the dangerous internal enemy. Migrants straddle that line beautifully.

    This "protection" from the internal enemy often takes the form of performative terrorization and abuse, so visible right now.
  • Questioner
    591
    they think of the past as good or bad.BenMcLean

    But this is not true. the division between left and right is not thinking the past is good or bad.

    My model just says, "Here's what they think"BenMcLean

    With all due respect, if you ignore the research about moral foundations supporting the left and the right position, your analysis will be shallow indeed.
  • AmadeusD
    4.3k
    By the nature of the right, they have little of substance to offer to the general population.hypericin

    what......This seems a patent example of the types of biases being spoken about. There's no reason to think this unless you think that, conceptually, things like fiscal responsibility, military protection, law and order etc.. are not offers to the general pop. You can argue with effectiveness etc... but clearly there's a lot being offered to the general population on paper at the very least.

    This "protection" from the internal enemy often takes the form of performative terrorization and abuse, so visible right now.hypericin

    This may explain.
  • hypericin
    2.1k
    what......This seems a patent example of the types of biases being spoken about.AmadeusD

    No. This follows from my premise, that the nature of the right is a political orientation towards elite interests. You may think that is bias. I think it is systematically true, and thus far I haven't seen a counterexample.

    There's no reason to think this unless you think that, conceptually, things like fiscal responsibility, military protection, law and order etc.. are not offers to the general pop.AmadeusD


    If you're going to discuss politics you have to at least distinguish rhetoric and substance. Rhetorically, that these are offered is beyond dispute.
  • AmadeusD
    4.3k
    No. This follows from my premise, that the nature of the right is a political orientation towards elite interests. You may think that is bias. I think it is systematically true, and thus far I haven't seen a counterexamplehypericin

    I could simply repeat my comment. You've not furthered hte position - just stated an opinion again. I gave you a reason why it appears to be bias.

    Rhetorically, that these are offered is beyond dispute.hypericin

    Then you should have clarified, huh? :joke:
  • BenMcLean
    101
    But this is not true. the division between left and right is not thinking the past is good or bad.Questioner
    To disprove it, you would need historical counterexamples, not psychology. A historical movement which is indisputably left wing which is anti-progressive in the sense of evaluating the past as benevolent rather than as oppressive. A historical movement which is indisputably right wing which is progressive in the sense of rejecting the past in order to advocate for a radical break from all past known social order to fundamentally reorder society against all precedent with no past golden age to be restored. Find me any countereamples and I'll have to either mark them as outliers, adjust or even completely abandon my model.

    With all due respect, if you ignore the research about moral foundations supporting the left and the right position, your analysis will be shallow indeed.Questioner
    I was being polite. Psychology is fundamentally not a legitimate science in the modern sense, having more in common with theology. That's not an insult because I actually respect theology within its proper scope and am here merely categorizing it as non-scientific. Psychology gets closest to a modern natural science when it incorporates aspects of neurobiology, but to a large extent, it heavily depends on ideological framing which blows away as soon as the political winds shift.

    My idea here doesn't necessarily conflict with Haidt's but Hadit's idea is in fact not hard natural science. But then, neither is mine. The kind of work I'm doing here is definitional: it would define what "Left" and "Right" would mean first, so that someone like Haidt could come along later and ask, "Why do people adopt Left or Right leaning political views?" based on a pre-existing understanding of what those terms mean so that they even can be researched. You can't even ask why people hold Left or Right leaning views without already knowing what Left and Right means.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    If, as hypercin asserts, "Even handedness is not a strength of a model that is supposed to be rooted in fact." then there are a number of facts I could absolutely bring up which would be pretty damning for the Left: especially statistics about race along with brute forcing an understanding of what "per capita" means so that Leftists can no longer pretend to not understand.

    It's not in the interests of my specific political goals to bring up these facts other than to demolish the Left, as I normally don't find these facts especially relevant to my goals, but noticing them at all is fundamentally incompatible with Leftist political goals.

    And if we want to totally abandon even-handedness for partisan insult then of course two can play at that extremely stupid game.
  • Questioner
    591


    How do you make the leap that being progressive means you hate the past?

    Psychology is fundamentally not a legitimate science in the modern sense, having more in common with theology.BenMcLean

    This is not accurate. Psychology is widely considered a science because it uses objective, empirical methods (observation, experimentation, and data analysis) to study human behavior and mental processes. It is recognized as a science by the US National Science Foundation.

    https://www.nsf.gov/focus-areas/people-society

    but to a large extent, it heavily depends on ideological framing which blows away as soon as the political winds shift.BenMcLean

    But it doesn't

    My idea here doesn't necessarily conflict with Haidt's but Hadit's idea is in fact not hard natural science.BenMcLean

    Haidt's "ideas" are not unsupported conclusions, which yours seem to be.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    How do you make the leap that being progressive means you hate the past?Questioner
    That doesn't seem like a leap: that seems to be implicit in what "progressive" means as a basic concept. Not that a progressive necessarily has negative emotions about the past and definitely not that a progressive doesn't enjoy nostalgia as entertainment, but that a progressive fundamentally thinks of the world as having an overall trend of "progress" where things get better over time, which unavoidably entails that things were worse in the past, especially as regards government. Not because we've done any survey of progressives to find out that they think this, but because this is why we call them "progressives."

    This is not accurate. Psychology is widely considered a science because it uses objective, empirical methods (observation, experimentation, and data analysis) to study human behavior and mental processes. It is recognized as a science by the US National Science Foundation.Questioner
    And where does the NSF get its funding? Oh that's right, from taxes, which means that any pronouncements it makes blow away as soon as the political winds shift. What the NSF says is a function of what the government wants people to believe.

    Haidt's "ideas" are not unsupported conclusions, which yours seem to be.Questioner
    Haidt's research must presuppose some definitions in order to be able to do research. All research must, not just some. This is not a criticism of Haidt: it's an unavoidable part of the nature of research. Look in his early chapters. You will find that he either presupposes the definitions of Left and Right or else he presupposes the definitions of some other terms that are then later used to define Left and Right. I know this not beacuse I have read his particular book, but because I can read.

    If I was claiming Haidt is wrong here, then I'd definitely have the burden of proof on that claim, but I'm not. I think you're dogmatizing Haidt's framing as the only way to look at things rather than merely adopting it as a useful model like that how kind of research should be applied.
  • Ecurb
    134
    To disprove it, you would need historical counterexamples, not psychology.BenMcLean

    "Progressives" often laud the pasts of indigenous peoples: matrilineal and egalitarian Native Americans, for example. Personally, I dislike the label "Progressive", because it implies "progress" toward a predetermined goal, and marching in lockstep to reach the goal. I picture jackboots stomping in progressive unison down the street. The old-fashioned "liberal", on the other hand, suggests open-minded generosity, acceptance of new ideas and differing opinions, and a willingness (but not a necessity) to change.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    "Progressives" often laud the pasts of indigenous peoples: matrilineal and egalitarian Native Americans, for example.Ecurb
    No, they really dont. The category of "indigenous" means "oppressted by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity before the age of European colonization. They just think that "indigenous peoples" are a manipulable voting block suseptible to the ideology of very rich, very white women from California with blue hair.

    Personally, I dislike the label "Progressive", because it implies "progress" toward a predetermined goal, and marching in lockstep to reach the goal. I picture jackboots stomping in progressive unison down the street. The old-fashioned "liberal", on the other hand, suggests open-minded generosity, acceptance of new ideas and differing opinions, and a willingness (but not a necessity) to change.Ecurb
    I have argued before that, in the politics of the United States, the conservatives have been the only liberals.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    A great example of how the National Science Foundation's pronouncements already blew away when the political winds shifted is how a 1996 episode of Bill Nye the Science Guy that was directly funded by an NSF grant absolutely stated in no uncertain terms that XX and XY chromosomes determine whether people are male or female. The NSF no longer believes this, so the episode has been retroactively censored because the political winds shifted. Obviously, they would never fund anything which would say that today and might even fund propaganda to say the opposite. This demonstrates how every scientific authority is downstream from funding which is downstream from politics. They will all change their tune if the money changes its alignment. Everything they say is subject to change depending on whose money determines what they're allowed to say.
  • Ecurb
    134
    No, they really dont. The category of "indigenous" means "oppressed by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity.BenMcLean

    Perhaps the past admired by progressives is "mythical" -- but so is the past conservatives admire. Both pick and choose. "Make America Great Again" worships a mythical past of working class prosperity, but African-Americans and Hispanics did not share in it.

    The "liberal" individual rights proponents the modern right admires (Locke, Mill, Rousseau, etc.) borrowed "liberally" from Native American philosophers. One Jesuit missionary wrote, "They (the Montagnais-Naskapi) imagine they ought by right of birth, to enjoy the liberty of wild ass colts, rendering no homage anyone whomsoever, except when they like."

    This was anathema ot Europeans, trained on the Divine Right of Kings, and obedience to authority. Hence the reference to "ass colts".

    Father Lallemant wrote of the Wendat, "I do not believe that there is any people on earth freer than they.... so much so that fathers have no control over their children, or Captains over their subjects, or the laws of the country over any of them, except in so far as each is pleased to submit to them."

    The Jesuits, who believed in submission to law, were shocked by this liberty -- especially the right of women to control their own bodies leading to sexual liberty for the unmarried and at-will divorce. (Lallemant apparently thought many Wendat women were out to seduce him (his own secret desires may have led to these delusions).

    A book about the Wendat by Gabriel Sagard was popular among European intellectuals, and although Sagard disapproved of the libertine Wendat ways, he praised their powers of eloquence and reasoned argument.

    Of course "freedom" is not admired by some factions of the left wing -- "Progressives" long for the lockstep they admire to be enforced. Communism and anarchism are both features of the left wing, although they are about as different as they can be.

    (The Native American philosophy and its European influence is gleaned from "The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity" by David Graeber and David Wengrow. HIghly recommended.)
  • Jamal
    11.7k
    The category of "indigenous" means "oppressted by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity before the age of European colonization. They just think that "indigenous peoples" are a manipulable voting block suseptible to the ideology of very rich, very white women from California with blue hair.BenMcLean

    Ultra-patriarchal ways of life are characteristic primarily of settled, agricultural, and urban societies that have property, inheritance, surplus production, and institutional hierarchies. If by indigenous we mean societies that have a lot less of that, including hunting and gathering societies, then it seems to be the case that they are and were mostly more egalitarian and less patriarchal.
  • BenMcLean
    101
    Perhaps the past admired by progressives is "mythical" -- but so is the past conservatives admire. Both pick and choose.Ecurb
    European colonization is clearly the relevant past. If you press them, they will define pre-colonial societies as oppressive also because they all believe that, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle." That is something only the Left believes. They will make up bullshit about "We wuz kangs" but the real, functional, defineable past is always framed as oppression.

    "Make America Great Again" worships a mythical past of working class prosperity, but African-Americans and Hispanics did not share in it.Ecurb
    Neither did Austrailian aboriginees or the theoretical inhabitants of distant galaxies but when the majority population of a society prospers then that is, without qualification, a historically massive achievement for any society to ever be able to claim anywhere. Most societies cannot justifiably claim this: they can only claim prosperity for a minority population.

    The "liberal" individual rights proponents the modern right admires (Locke, Mill, Rousseau, etc.) borrowed "liberally" from Native American philosophers. One Jesuit missionary wrote, "They (the Montagnais-Naskapi) imagine they ought by right of birth, to enjoy the liberty of wild ass colts, rendering no homage anyone whomsoever, except when they like."Ecurb
    The modern Right does not admire Rousseau and it's questionable the extent to which they can be claimed to admire Mill. Also, none of those guys ideas were genuinely based on American Indians. They projected the theological ideas they wanted to believe in onto them.
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