BenMcLean
NOS4A2
There is a Right Side ( Côté Droit ), a Left Side ( Côté Gauche ); sitting on M. le President’s right hand, or on his left: the Côté Droit conservative; the Côté Gauche destructive.
Tzeentch
BenMcLean
I meant to define "Left" and "Right" and not to adjudicate conservative vs reactionary or progressive vs radical. The Left-Right schema as described here does not actually make a ruling on what the past was actually like: it instead describes how political ideologies view the past.Conservatives should logically occupy the center. What you describe as conservatives are actually reactionary. However, reactionary and progressive really are two sides of the same coin - they both want to see a significantly different society. — Tzeentch
NOS4A2
BC
hypericin
AmadeusD
Nor is the meaning of the right culturally relative. The right favors and serves the elite, in practice if not always in rhetoric. — hypericin
Questioner
where the Right specifically thinks of the past as good while the Left specifically thinks of the past as bad. — BenMcLean
BenMcLean
This is self-serving Leftist rhetoric, trying to redefine the terms in a way that's complimentary to the Left and insulting to the Right. A major strength of the model I have outlined is that it does not do this -- in either direction.The right favors and serves the elite — hypericin
BenMcLean
This position is not grounded in the research. I suggest you read The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt — Questioner
Questioner
I'm merely categorizing political ideologies by content. — BenMcLean
where the Right specifically thinks of the past as good while the Left specifically thinks of the past as bad.
— BenMcLean — Questioner
BenMcLean
That's not motivation because it doesn't get into why they think of the past as good or bad. Those are conclusions, not motivations for the conclusions.you are entering the realm of motivations — Questioner
hypericin
A major strength of the model I have outlined is that it does not do this -- in either direction. — BenMcLean
immigration — BenMcLean
Questioner
they think of the past as good or bad. — BenMcLean
My model just says, "Here's what they think" — BenMcLean
AmadeusD
By the nature of the right, they have little of substance to offer to the general population. — hypericin
This "protection" from the internal enemy often takes the form of performative terrorization and abuse, so visible right now. — hypericin
hypericin
what......This seems a patent example of the types of biases being spoken about. — AmadeusD
There's no reason to think this unless you think that, conceptually, things like fiscal responsibility, military protection, law and order etc.. are not offers to the general pop. — AmadeusD
AmadeusD
No. This follows from my premise, that the nature of the right is a political orientation towards elite interests. You may think that is bias. I think it is systematically true, and thus far I haven't seen a counterexample — hypericin
Rhetorically, that these are offered is beyond dispute. — hypericin
BenMcLean
To disprove it, you would need historical counterexamples, not psychology. A historical movement which is indisputably left wing which is anti-progressive in the sense of evaluating the past as benevolent rather than as oppressive. A historical movement which is indisputably right wing which is progressive in the sense of rejecting the past in order to advocate for a radical break from all past known social order to fundamentally reorder society against all precedent with no past golden age to be restored. Find me any countereamples and I'll have to either mark them as outliers, adjust or even completely abandon my model.But this is not true. the division between left and right is not thinking the past is good or bad. — Questioner
I was being polite. Psychology is fundamentally not a legitimate science in the modern sense, having more in common with theology. That's not an insult because I actually respect theology within its proper scope and am here merely categorizing it as non-scientific. Psychology gets closest to a modern natural science when it incorporates aspects of neurobiology, but to a large extent, it heavily depends on ideological framing which blows away as soon as the political winds shift.With all due respect, if you ignore the research about moral foundations supporting the left and the right position, your analysis will be shallow indeed. — Questioner
BenMcLean
Questioner
Psychology is fundamentally not a legitimate science in the modern sense, having more in common with theology. — BenMcLean
but to a large extent, it heavily depends on ideological framing which blows away as soon as the political winds shift. — BenMcLean
My idea here doesn't necessarily conflict with Haidt's but Hadit's idea is in fact not hard natural science. — BenMcLean
BenMcLean
That doesn't seem like a leap: that seems to be implicit in what "progressive" means as a basic concept. Not that a progressive necessarily has negative emotions about the past and definitely not that a progressive doesn't enjoy nostalgia as entertainment, but that a progressive fundamentally thinks of the world as having an overall trend of "progress" where things get better over time, which unavoidably entails that things were worse in the past, especially as regards government. Not because we've done any survey of progressives to find out that they think this, but because this is why we call them "progressives."How do you make the leap that being progressive means you hate the past? — Questioner
And where does the NSF get its funding? Oh that's right, from taxes, which means that any pronouncements it makes blow away as soon as the political winds shift. What the NSF says is a function of what the government wants people to believe.This is not accurate. Psychology is widely considered a science because it uses objective, empirical methods (observation, experimentation, and data analysis) to study human behavior and mental processes. It is recognized as a science by the US National Science Foundation. — Questioner
Haidt's research must presuppose some definitions in order to be able to do research. All research must, not just some. This is not a criticism of Haidt: it's an unavoidable part of the nature of research. Look in his early chapters. You will find that he either presupposes the definitions of Left and Right or else he presupposes the definitions of some other terms that are then later used to define Left and Right. I know this not beacuse I have read his particular book, but because I can read.Haidt's "ideas" are not unsupported conclusions, which yours seem to be. — Questioner
Ecurb
To disprove it, you would need historical counterexamples, not psychology. — BenMcLean
BenMcLean
No, they really dont. The category of "indigenous" means "oppressted by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity before the age of European colonization. They just think that "indigenous peoples" are a manipulable voting block suseptible to the ideology of very rich, very white women from California with blue hair."Progressives" often laud the pasts of indigenous peoples: matrilineal and egalitarian Native Americans, for example. — Ecurb
I have argued before that, in the politics of the United States, the conservatives have been the only liberals.Personally, I dislike the label "Progressive", because it implies "progress" toward a predetermined goal, and marching in lockstep to reach the goal. I picture jackboots stomping in progressive unison down the street. The old-fashioned "liberal", on the other hand, suggests open-minded generosity, acceptance of new ideas and differing opinions, and a willingness (but not a necessity) to change. — Ecurb
BenMcLean
Ecurb
No, they really dont. The category of "indigenous" means "oppressed by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity. — BenMcLean
Jamal
The category of "indigenous" means "oppressted by whites" and nothing else. Their only interest in so-called "indigenous peoples" is simply anti-white: they do not want to roll back feminism to return to the ultra-patriarchal ways of life that were in fact the near universal historical norm for humanity before the age of European colonization. They just think that "indigenous peoples" are a manipulable voting block suseptible to the ideology of very rich, very white women from California with blue hair. — BenMcLean
BenMcLean
European colonization is clearly the relevant past. If you press them, they will define pre-colonial societies as oppressive also because they all believe that, "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle." That is something only the Left believes. They will make up bullshit about "We wuz kangs" but the real, functional, defineable past is always framed as oppression.Perhaps the past admired by progressives is "mythical" -- but so is the past conservatives admire. Both pick and choose. — Ecurb
Neither did Austrailian aboriginees or the theoretical inhabitants of distant galaxies but when the majority population of a society prospers then that is, without qualification, a historically massive achievement for any society to ever be able to claim anywhere. Most societies cannot justifiably claim this: they can only claim prosperity for a minority population."Make America Great Again" worships a mythical past of working class prosperity, but African-Americans and Hispanics did not share in it. — Ecurb
The modern Right does not admire Rousseau and it's questionable the extent to which they can be claimed to admire Mill. Also, none of those guys ideas were genuinely based on American Indians. They projected the theological ideas they wanted to believe in onto them.The "liberal" individual rights proponents the modern right admires (Locke, Mill, Rousseau, etc.) borrowed "liberally" from Native American philosophers. One Jesuit missionary wrote, "They (the Montagnais-Naskapi) imagine they ought by right of birth, to enjoy the liberty of wild ass colts, rendering no homage anyone whomsoever, except when they like." — Ecurb
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