• Clarendon
    69
    First, I take it that 'problems' of consciousness only arise if you assume that physical things are what ultimately exist, such that consciousness has to be found a home in that picture (a project that is then problematic).

    This is already problematic - for if making a particular assumption generates problems that would not have arisen otherwise, then the sensible thing to do is to give up the assumption, not double-down on it!

    But anyway, let's make that assumption and try and figure out exactly how this generates a 'problem of consciousness'.

    It seems to me that a lot of what is represented to be problematic isn't at all. For example, that consciousness is strange and that we have unique access to our own conscious states. All kinds of state are strange. Shape is nothing like colour. But that in no way implies that such states cannot be states of one and the same thing. Physical things have shape and colour despite those qualities being nothing remotely like each other. Similarly, no matter how peculiar consciousness may be, and no matter how unlike other physical properties, this is no obstacle in itself to it being a state of a physical thing.

    Likewise, pointing out that we can explain a physical object's behaviour without having to posit any conscious states also raises no problem at all. It certainly doesn't imply that concious states can't be among the states a physical thing can have. I can explain how my key unlocks the door without having to posit colour of either - that doesn't raise a problem of colour or imply that colour can't be a property of physical things. Likewise for consciousness then.

    That we can easily conceive of physical things lacking conscious states seems to me not to raise any real problem either. At most it seems to show that conscious states are not essential states of a physical thing in the way that shape and size seem to be. But that doesn't (to my mind anyway) imply that physical objects cannot have such states contingently. I don't see why a state of a thing has to be a necessary state of it in order to be a state of it.

    So far, so much red herring. What's the real problem then?

    The real problem - one that I, at least, can see 'is' a problem - is that you can't get out what you don't put in. For example, you can't make something that has size by combining lots of sizeless things. That's just not going to work. The only way to make a sized thing, is to combine things of size - no size in, no size out.

    Similarly then, you aren't going to be able to make a conscious object out of objects that are not already conscious (or at least disposed to be). For that would be alchemy. Call it 'strong emergence' if one wants - but that's just a label for what is in fact something coming from nothing. Thus, as our brains are made out of atoms, then either atoms have consciousness (or are disposed to) or brains simply can't have consciousness.

    As our conscious states clearly exist, we must therefore conclude (it seems) that either we are an atom - and that, as such, there are trillions upon trillions of us in our body.....that I am just one atom among a vast citadel of conscious atoms composing my body (which, though coherent, seems farcical), or conscious states are states of something quite different to any physical thing. Of course, drawing that latter conclusion means giving up the starting assumption.....which most contemporary philosophers are not willing to do.....hence 'a hard problem'.
  • bongo fury
    1.8k
    The real problem - one that I, at least, can see 'is' a problem - is that you can't get out what you don't put in. For example, you can't make something that has size by combining lots of sizeless things. That's just not going to work.Clarendon

    You put that as though it ought to be obvious? It seems questionable to me. Doesn't it lead (inexorably or not) down one or more of Zeno's rabbit holes?

    I'm alive to the analogy between consciousness and colour. Shape: sure, at least if you present it alongside colour. Size: I suppose so, I guess, since after all, you remind me about shape, and that was compared to colour. But now how does your worry about size, which intuitively I find uncompelling, convert to colour (which for me is a more promising analogy with consciousness anyway)?

    Illuminate a previously unilluminated object and it becomes coloured. So what's the problem? Would you be arguing that previously the object wasn't non-coloured at all, but had the specific colour of black? Then (if so) couldn't "sizeless things" be a specific size (of zero)? And the colour analogy then isn't readily aligned with your position on size (if that position is against allowing a change in size from zero to positive).

    Or would you be arguing that the colourless object received a positive quantity of colour when illuminated?

    Still, I mustn't put words in your mouth.
  • wonderer1
    2.4k


    I recommend you work on understanding fallacies of composition.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    So then, how does consciousness emerge from non-conscious stuff?
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    845
    Sounds like to me you're stuck in Grammar Psychology which forces subject predicate agreement and is responsible for creating "thinghood" in terms of freezing becoming into being... hence you make non physical concepts into "things" and think they're real.

    Like the word Infinity.
  • jkop
    1k
    how does consciousness emerge from non-conscious stuff?RogueAI

    In principle, like a forest emerges from a set of trees, or photosynthesis from photochemical reactions.

    I don't mean that plants are conscious, but they share some basic abilities. For example, they identify and interact with their environment. If a plant would develop legs and the ability to move, it might also have to develop a nerve system in order to remain viable. Organisms co-evolve with their environment.

    Some insects might be conscious. Fish, birds, and mammals are definitely conscious. Computers can be programmed to mimic consciousness, but mimicry doesn't make anything conscious. We can't "fake it til we make it".

    So how does consciousness emerge? Either it's a matter of research, or of understanding that a conscious state is a brain event on a different level of description.
  • Clarendon
    69
    Are you saying that I have committed such a fallacy?
  • Clarendon
    69
    That seems to miss the point. A distinction is commonly drawn between weak emergence and strong emergence.

    Combining objects of different weights will result in a whole that weighs more than any of its parts. The weight is said to be weakly emergent. But you can't get weight from that which has none. Or at least, if one could, then such weight would be 'strongly' emergent.

    Likewise, one can combine shaped things to make an object that has a shape none of its parts possess - that shape would be weakly emergent - but one cannot combine shapeless things and thereby make a shaped thing (or at least, if one could, then the resulting shape would be 'strongly' emergent). Your forest from trees example is an example of weak emergence - and though there's nothing problematic about weak emergence, it is not weak emergence that we're talking about.

    In other words, one cannot get a 'kind' from that which does not possess it - for that would be to get out what was in no sense there in the originals. And it is because strong emergence seems incoherent that there is a problem of consciousness for the physicalist. For they must either just insist that something can come from nothing - which is ad hoc - or they must insist that the basic units of matter have consciousness - which also seems ad hoc - or they must give up their physicalism and admit that consciousness is a property of something non-physical.

    It is no use, note, simply to say we need to investigate the matter. The point is that no amount of further investigation will do anything to address such problems, for all one would be doing is stipulating that something is coming from nothing 'at this point'. And that's not an explanation, but a stipulation where an explanation sshould be.
  • Clarendon
    69
    I'm afraid I do not know what you mean.

    Is there a problem in the idea of making a sized thing from that which has no size? If you agree that this sounds impossible, then you should agree that there is also a problem in the idea of getting a conscious thing out of things that have no consciousness, for the same impossibility attends it.
  • Clarendon
    69
    Well 'colour' is one of those features whose status as objective or subjective is a matter of debate.

    If it is objective, then one would have to suppose atoms to be coloured if they are to be capable of creating something coloured (for now the colour is a feature of the object itself, not a disposition to cause a colour sensation in a perceiver of the object).

    On the other hand, if colour is subjective then one does not.

    The point though is that strong emergence seems impossible, as it is a case of getting something out that was in no way present in any of the ingredients.
  • jkop
    1k
    one cannot get a 'kind' from that which does not possess itClarendon

    ?
    Where do you think 'kinds' come from? If one cannot get a kind from that which does not possess it, then there could be no kinds, only particulars.

    Photosynthesis emerges from photochemical events, and consciousness from brain events, regardless of whether we categorize the parts or the wholes as kinds of this or that.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5.2k
    Are you saying that I have committed such a fallacy?Clarendon

    @wonderer1 need not say it; you have presented a textbook example.

    Read the wiki page he linked. It is educational.
  • bongo fury
    1.8k
    Well 'colour' is one of those features whose status as objective or subjective is a matter of debate.Clarendon

    I'm not sure how helpful that debate is. I say violet is a class (or kind or type or category or set) of illumination events, which an object may or may not exemplify. Obviously, a suitably lit Violet is the go-to exemplar of a violet illumination event (or light event). Similarly a trombone has a trombone sound, in that it helps create sound events of that type or class. More usually of course there is no eponymous exemplar, but plenty of others.

    Such a class of physical events is decidedly vague (or fuzzy), and determined originally by socially coordinated perceptual judgement. Physics merely describes the already established fuzzy (but reasonably stable) borders. Does that make the class subjective? The question lacks force, for me. Glad to hear your view.

    If it is objective, [...] (for now the colour is a feature of the object itself, not a disposition to cause a colour sensation in a perceiver of the object).Clarendon

    But is size a feature of the object itself, and not a disposition to cause a certain class of size-measurement event? Can't it be both? The (size) event class could be as fuzzy as a class of colours (illumination events), but then wouldn't it still be a property of the object? Or does objectivity require (at least theoretically) crisp borders?
  • Clarendon
    69
    In my limited experience, those who toss fallacy accusations around without taking the trouble to explain in precisely what way a fallacy has been committed do not know what they are talking about. But you're free to show my assumption wrong by spelling out how you think I've committed the fallacy of composition.
  • Clarendon
    69
    I take kinds to be basic. Everyone must accept that some kinds are basic, so this is not a problem (or if it is, it's a problem for the strong emergentist about consciousness as much as it is for anyone else - which leaves the particular problem I'm highlighting standing).

    The person who thinks consciousness can strongly emerge from physical entities that do not already possess it is insisting that consciousness just pops into being out of nothing - that really does seem like magic and we would not accept such a proposal in other contexts. When the magician pulls a rabbit from a hat, we do not think that the hat really was empty and then a rabbit simply formed in it out of nothing - we assume a rabbit had been cleverly secreted somewhere. No rabbit in, no rabbit out.

    Weak emergence is fine, but strong emergence is magic.
  • Clarendon
    69
    It seems to me that you're focussing on a different issue. My point is that the real problem of consciousness for the physicalist - one that has real teeth - is that they either have to suppose consciousness to be a property of atoms (which isn't incoherent, I think, but seems unreasonable compared to just rejecting the assumption of physicalism), or insist that we can get consciousness out without having put it in - which seems incoherent, as incoherent as supposing that we can make a sized thing from sizeless things.

    My earlier points where just setting the stage for this being the real problem. As those other 'problems' don't really get started. There's nothing in the peculiarity of consciousness that precludes it from being a property of physical things. It doesn't matter how radically dissimilar it is from other widely accepted physical properties - such as size and shape - it is, for that in itself does not indicate that it can't be a property of something with those other properties (anymore than differences between shape and size preclude those from being properties of one and the same thing).
  • frank
    18.9k

    Maybe there's some quantum physics explanation we haven't discovered yet.
  • Clarendon
    69
    But the point is that there can't possibly be. It's not for want of more detail that one can't build a shaped thing from shapeless things or a sized thing from sizeless things. The problem is that it seems a truth of reason that you cannot get something from nothing. And to propose that consciousness strongly emerges from ingredients wholly lacking in consciousness is to have gotten something from nothing.

    So the problem is not one that arises through a lack of information. We seem to have incoherence. Burying it in a mass of information won't help stop it being incoherent. At some point the 'explanation' of how consciousness emerges from ingredients wholly lacking in it will have to say 'and hey presto - consciouness arises at this point'....which isn't an explanation at all, of course, but just an announcement of the magical arrival of consciousness.
  • bongo fury
    1.8k
    It seems to me that you're focussing on a different issue.Clarendon

    I'm trying to grasp your central doctrine,

    The real problem - one that I, at least, can see 'is' a problem - is that you can't get out what you don't put in.Clarendon

    I don't buy it. Like I said, I don't see the size analogy avoiding the usual Zeno rabbit holes. Whereas I'm fascinated by colour (who isn't!) and I see an analogy. Consciousness might be a class of brain events just as colours are classes of illumination events or musical tones are classes of sound events. I pointed out that a cup, say, has no colour (or is zero-coloured) when in a cupboard, but acquires colour as soon as exposed to light. Colour from no colour?

    Granted, that's not about composition. Yet.
  • Clarendon
    69
    Like I said, I don't see the size analogy avoiding the usual Zeno rabbit holes.bongo fury

    I don't think I follow. The point about size was simply to illustrate the principle that you cannot get something from nothing. Combining sizeless things will clearly never enable you to create a sized thing. Likewise, combining weightless things cannot give you something that has weight. Combining zeros cannot give you 1. And so on.

    When it comes to colour, well if colour is objective, then atoms must have it if anything made of them is to. Whereas if colour is subjective, then it is not analogous to consciousness
  • Clarendon
    69
    To elaborate a little more: Zeno’s paradoxes concern the divisibility of magnitude and motion. They raise questions about how continuous quantities can be composed from infinitely many parts, or how motion is possible given such divisibility.

    However, my point has nothing to do with that. I am making a much simpler claim: you cannot generate a property of a given kind from ingredients that wholly lack that kind. No appeal to Zeno helps here. Even if space were infinitely divisible, it would remain true that combining things with no extension whatsoever cannot yield extension. That is not a problem about infinity. It is a problem about creation from nothing.

    Regrding your example of an object in a cupboard. If colour is objective, then the object in the cupboard has it even when in the cupboard (it wouldn't be an objective propery otherwise). When we open the cupboard and it becomes illuminated such that we can now see its colour, nothing new has been created. Either colour is objective, in which case the relevant physical properties were already present, or colour is subjective, in which case the colour resides in the interaction between object, light, and perceiver. In neither case do we have a new kind arising from nothing.
  • Clarendon
    69
    A couple of people have mentioned the fallacy of composition here, though without taking the trouble to explain what this is or how I am supposed to have committed it.
    As I suspect no such explanation will be forthcoming, I'll attempt it myself.

    First, the fallacy of composition - which, really importantly, is not always a fallacy - consists of inferring, without further justification, that because each part of a thing has, or lacks, some property, the whole must therefore have or lack it. So because a brick is small, it is then inferred that a wall made of bricks must also be small.

    That inference is indeed invalid in cases of weak emergence. New shapes can arise from old shapes, new sizes from old sizes, new weights from old weights. In such cases it would be fallacious to deny the whole a property merely because the parts lack it.

    But my argument is not about weak emergence. It concerns strong emergence. The claim is that a wholly new kind of property cannot be generated from combining things that lack it. Combinatuiion and arrangement can produce new instances of an existing kind of property, but it cannot bring an entirely new property into existence. It is for strong emergence that no fallacy is involved. No size among the parts, then no size will belong to the whole. That's not fallacious.

    Consciousness is a completely different property from size, or shape. If, then, one supposes complex bundles of atoms to have it, one would have to suppose the atoms possess it else one would be supposing a wholly new property to arise from combining things that lack it.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    The problem is that it seems a truth of reason that you cannot get something from nothing.Clarendon

    What about fusion? If you take a bunch of hydrogen atoms and squeeze them, you don't get fusion. You don't get anything like fusion. Ah, but if you take a huge amount of hydrogen and gravity squeezes it hard enough, you get this entirely new phenomenon emerges: fusion. Perhaps the Integrated Information Theorist can make a similar argument: when enough information processing happens (a critical mass, if you will), this entirely new phenomenon emerges: consciousness.

    I know there are problems with this line of reasoning: fusion could have bee predicted from first principles, while consciousness could not.
  • Clarendon
    69
    Hi, I'm no physicist, but if fusion could have been predicted from first principles then that seems to demonstrate that it is a case of weak emergence, not strong.

    It must be that those atoms have a disposition to fuse under certain circumstances. So this is not a new kind of property that arises from nowhere, but a disposition that was always present but is only activated when the atoms are under the right kind of pressure.

    Applied to consciousness, to make the analogy work one would have to say that atoms are dispositionally conscious (else we'd have strong emergence). Perhaps they are - but attributing a disposition to be conscious to atoms seems about as hard a bullet to bite as attributing acutal consciousness to them, imo.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    You are correct that the universe rarely let's you have something from nothing (except, possibly, itself), and consciousness emerging from nonconscious stuff would definitely be something. I know there's a push by people to claim the consciousness that emerges is something, technically, but not really anything because its noncausal, but that's a very implausible position few should take seriously.
  • Clarendon
    69
    Yes, if they think conciousness is noncausal then they should revise their view that existences have causal powers given it clearly exists, or revise their view that it lacks such powers. Although having said that, it seems to me that it is not consciousness that has causal powers, but the thing-that-is-conscious. When I decide to raise my arm 'I' raised my arm rather than my decision doing so.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    I would say conscious states definitely have causal powers: torturers and interrogators and The Spanish Inquisition, have known that since the dawn of time.
  • Tom Storm
    10.8k
    torturers and interrogators and The Spanish Inquisition, have known that since the dawn of time.RogueAI

    I think that initiative was a bit later than this. :wink:
  • Corvus
    4.8k
    First, I take it that 'problems' of consciousness only arise if you assume that physical things are what ultimately exist, such that consciousness has to be found a home in that picture (a project that is then problematic).Clarendon

    Consciousness means that you are awake, and able to see things around you, and respond to others in rational linguistic manner in interpersonal communication. You are also able to do things for you in order to keep your well being eating drinking good food, and sleeping at right times caring for your own health, your family folks and friends.

    It is not something in atoms and particles of physical existence of some spooky nature.
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