• Clarendon
    60
    First, I take it that 'problems' of consciousness only arise if you assume that physical things are what ultimately exist, such that consciousness has to be found a home in that picture (a project that is then problematic).

    This is already problematic - for if making a particular assumption generates problems that would not have arisen otherwise, then the sensible thing to do is to give up the assumption, not double-down on it!

    But anyway, let's make that assumption and try and figure out exactly how this generates a 'problem of consciousness'.

    It seems to me that a lot of what is represented to be problematic isn't at all. For example, that consciousness is strange and that we have unique access to our own conscious states. All kinds of state are strange. Shape is nothing like colour. But that in no way implies that such states cannot be states of one and the same thing. Physical things have shape and colour despite those qualities being nothing remotely like each other. Similarly, no matter how peculiar consciousness may be, and no matter how unlike other physical properties, this is no obstacle in itself to it being a state of a physical thing.

    Likewise, pointing out that we can explain a physical object's behaviour without having to posit any conscious states also raises no problem at all. It certainly doesn't imply that concious states can't be among the states a physical thing can have. I can explain how my key unlocks the door without having to posit colour of either - that doesn't raise a problem of colour or imply that colour can't be a property of physical things. Likewise for consciousness then.

    That we can easily conceive of physical things lacking conscious states seems to me not to raise any real problem either. At most it seems to show that conscious states are not essential states of a physical thing in the way that shape and size seem to be. But that doesn't (to my mind anyway) imply that physical objects cannot have such states contingently. I don't see why a state of a thing has to be a necessary state of it in order to be a state of it.

    So far, so much red herring. What's the real problem then?

    The real problem - one that I, at least, can see 'is' a problem - is that you can't get out what you don't put in. For example, you can't make something that has size by combining lots of sizeless things. That's just not going to work. The only way to make a sized thing, is to combine things of size - no size in, no size out.

    Similarly then, you aren't going to be able to make a conscious object out of objects that are not already conscious (or at least disposed to be). For that would be alchemy. Call it 'strong emergence' if one wants - but that's just a label for what is in fact something coming from nothing. Thus, as our brains are made out of atoms, then either atoms have consciousness (or are disposed to) or brains simply can't have consciousness.

    As our conscious states clearly exist, we must therefore conclude (it seems) that either we are an atom - and that, as such, there are trillions upon trillions of us in our body.....that I am just one atom among a vast citadel of conscious atoms composing my body (which, though coherent, seems farcical), or conscious states are states of something quite different to any physical thing. Of course, drawing that latter conclusion means giving up the starting assumption.....which most contemporary philosophers are not willing to do.....hence 'a hard problem'.
  • bongo fury
    1.8k
    The real problem - one that I, at least, can see 'is' a problem - is that you can't get out what you don't put in. For example, you can't make something that has size by combining lots of sizeless things. That's just not going to work.Clarendon

    You put that as though it ought to be obvious? It seems questionable to me. Doesn't it lead (inexorably or not) down one or more of Zeno's rabbit holes?

    I'm alive to the analogy between consciousness and colour. Shape: sure, at least if you present it alongside colour. Size: I suppose so, I guess, since after all, you remind me about shape, and that was compared to colour. But now how does your worry about size, which intuitively I find uncompelling, convert to colour (which for me is a more promising analogy with consciousness anyway)?

    Illuminate a previously unilluminated object and it becomes coloured. So what's the problem? Would you be arguing that previously the object wasn't non-coloured at all, but had the specific colour of black? Then (if so) couldn't "sizeless things" be a specific size (of zero)? And the colour analogy then isn't readily aligned with your position on size (if that position is against allowing a change in size from zero to positive).

    Or would you be arguing that the colourless object received a positive quantity of colour when illuminated?

    Still, I mustn't put words in your mouth.
  • wonderer1
    2.4k


    I recommend you work on understanding fallacies of composition.
  • RogueAI
    3.5k
    So then, how does consciousness emerge from non-conscious stuff?
  • DifferentiatingEgg
    845
    Sounds like to me you're stuck in Grammar Psychology which forces subject predicate agreement and is responsible for creating "thinghood" in terms of freezing becoming into being... hence you make non physical concepts into "things" and think they're real.

    Like the word Infinity.
  • jkop
    997
    how does consciousness emerge from non-conscious stuff?RogueAI

    In principle, like a forest emerges from a set of trees, or photosynthesis from photochemical reactions.

    I don't mean that plants are conscious, but they share some basic abilities. For example, they identify and interact with their environment. If a plant would develop legs and the ability to move, it might also have to develop a nerve system in order to remain viable. Organisms co-evolve with their environment.

    Some insects might be conscious. Fish, birds, and mammals are definitely conscious. Computers can be programmed to mimic consciousness, but mimicry doesn't make anything conscious. We can't "fake it til we make it".

    So how does consciousness emerge? Either it's a matter of research, or of understanding that a conscious state is a brain event on a different level of description.
  • Clarendon
    60
    Are you saying that I have committed such a fallacy?
  • Clarendon
    60
    That seems to miss the point. A distinction is commonly drawn between weak emergence and strong emergence.

    Combining objects of different weights will result in a whole that weighs more than any of its parts. The weight is said to be weakly emergent. But you can't get weight from that which has none. Or at least, if one could, then such weight would be 'strongly' emergent.

    Likewise, one can combine shaped things to make an object that has a shape none of its parts possess - that shape would be weakly emergent - but one cannot combine shapeless things and thereby make a shaped thing (or at least, if one could, then the resulting shape would be 'strongly' emergent). Your forest from trees example is an example of weak emergence - and though there's nothing problematic about weak emergence, it is not weak emergence that we're talking about.

    In other words, one cannot get a 'kind' from that which does not possess it - for that would be to get out what was in no sense there in the originals. And it is because strong emergence seems incoherent that there is a problem of consciousness for the physicalist. For they must either just insist that something can come from nothing - which is ad hoc - or they must insist that the basic units of matter have consciousness - which also seems ad hoc - or they must give up their physicalism and admit that consciousness is a property of something non-physical.

    It is no use, note, simply to say we need to investigate the matter. The point is that no amount of further investigation will do anything to address such problems, for all one would be doing is stipulating that something is coming from nothing 'at this point'. And that's not an explanation, but a stipulation where an explanation sshould be.
  • Clarendon
    60
    I'm afraid I do not know what you mean.

    Is there a problem in the idea of making a sized thing from that which has no size? If you agree that this sounds impossible, then you should agree that there is also a problem in the idea of getting a conscious thing out of things that have no consciousness, for the same impossibility attends it.
  • Clarendon
    60
    Well 'colour' is one of those features whose status as objective or subjective is a matter of debate.

    If it is objective, then one would have to suppose atoms to be coloured if they are to be capable of creating something coloured (for now the colour is a feature of the object itself, not a disposition to cause a colour sensation in a perceiver of the object).

    On the other hand, if colour is subjective then one does not.

    The point though is that strong emergence seems impossible, as it is a case of getting something out that was in no way present in any of the ingredients.
  • jkop
    997
    one cannot get a 'kind' from that which does not possess itClarendon

    ?
    Where do you think 'kinds' come from? If one cannot get a kind from that which does not possess it, then there could be no kinds, only particulars.

    Photosynthesis emerges from photochemical events, and consciousness from brain events, regardless of whether we categorize the parts or the wholes as kinds of this or that.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    5.2k
    Are you saying that I have committed such a fallacy?Clarendon

    @wonderer1 need not say it; you have presented a textbook example.

    Read the wiki page he linked. It is educational.
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