• Marc
    9
    I have created an argument that attempts to prove the existence of a spiritual dimesion. Please feel free to criticise it.

    My argument relies heavily on the experiences individuals have when taking a large dose of DMT. If you are unaware, dmt is the strongest psychedelic drug. There is a consensus between almost all that have taken DMT that they experience a real experience of leaving their own body and going to another dimesion (where they are a mere soul).

    My argument;

    P1 - DMT produces convincingly real hallucinations / realities of going to a spiritual dimension.

    P2 - This visionary experience of a spiritual dimension exists.

    C1 - this spiritual dimension is either a mere hallucination or is real.

    *now lets assume the experience is not a reality, but rather a hallucination

    P2–1 - this hallucination derived from the drug is an inherent part of the characteristics of the universe (CoU) (the drug is found in plants, which are a material thing in the universe. Furthermore, the hallucination of going to another dimension is consistent with most that take it and therefore a CoU)

    P2-2 - for this hallucination to exist as a part of the CoU; the principles that the CoU are governed by, must be knowing and/or accounted for this this hallucination (spiritual dimension)

    P2-3 - for the principles that govern the CoU to be knowing of this concept of a spiritual dimension, it must be a real characteristic of the universe that does exist (qualities these hallucination abide by have been fine tuned and developed with deep complexity by the principles in which the universe follows).

    C2- if DMT creates a hallucination, the hallucination must be representing something real.

    Or C2 may be - DMT can not create a mere hallucination.
  • armonie
    45
    What is real, always is from a perspective, what exists also always exists from a perspective.
    That experiences beyond normal perception are strange to us because of the anomaly they generate when we perceive reality does not mean that they give ownership of something spiritual to that experience.
    What is most conclusive of all this about DMT and other psychedelics is the function of language in that reality that seems unattainable to previously knowledge of signs.
  • Marc
    9
    I see where your coming from when you say ‘from a perspective.’ However, there are things that are objectively real or objectively exist. Although us humans may not be able to identify what is objectively real, this trait of being real does exist.
  • armonie
    45
    I agree, how do you think we are approaching that reality?

    I think that by experiencing other structures we can understand a little more about the parts that make up the whole. That is why we tell ourselves that we are incapable of knowing the objective, because all knowledge starts from a subject.
    But I think that we accumulate "parts" or "levels" of understanding, but of what? Of something that is outside of us?
    Personally I think that the fact of existence is given by the dialectical interaction of the parts.
    As if it existed outside a game of relationships, of perceptions among many elements.

    Posdata: Correct me if my English fails, I am not a native speaker.
  • Marc
    9
    You had me lost a little bit towards the end there.

    When I refer the spiritual dimension being real, in my opinion, for it to be real the system would have to continue to exist and function outside of the hallucination experienced by the person (not just a product of the human mind).
  • Wallows
    9.6k
    It's hypothesized that dreams are the manifestation of naturally occurring DMT within the brain. It's also thought that if the brain produces DMT, then people with psychotic disorders produce too much of it within waking hours or that stress precipitates such states of mind.

    So, yeah, I'd say it's as real as calling pain receptors opioidergic, immunomodulatory pertaining the endocannabinoid system or that pertaining cognition-nicotinic...
  • Marc
    9
    Yes, Ive heard these theories. It’s all speculation though, DMT’s role in the body is unknown. It is also hypothesised that DMT is released at the time of death.

    DMT is also found in plants, so it would appear to have more extensive uses than just dreaming.
  • armonie
    45
    And do you think others could get to locate the same dimension that you mend through the DMT?
    As if DMT gives access to a world that is disconnected from the hologram / human mind?
  • Marc
    9
    I haven’t taken DMT myself, so can’t speak on it directly. However those that have tend to hold the opinion that you can access this dimension after death, once your spirit leaves your material body
  • armonie
    45

    I would like to know what you mean by "spirit" or "spiritual dimension".
  • leo
    752
    There is surely more than what we usually perceive. And the body is an appearance, not the underlying reality, brain activity is correlated to some extent to the experiences that are lived, but these experiences do not reduce to brain activity, for instance we would expect that brain activity would increase on psychedelics and yet studies have shown the opposite, even though they give more complex and vivid experiences.

    So this leads me to the belief that either the spirit lives on after the death of the body, or the spirit dissolves into the rest of the universe. If we are more than the body, there is no reason that the ‘more’ would suddenly disappear into nothingness while the visible body remains.
  • Marc
    9
    spiritual dimension - another dimension where spirits reside.
  • Yanni
    16
    Never tried DMT but have read and also heard first hand recounts of the experience.
    One characteristic of the experience that seems to be common is the sensation/hallucination of what they retrospectively refer to as their 'ego' breaking apart or something similar.

    To me i've always thought that the experience may not be one of another dimension but could be simply perceiving more (or less) of this dimension. Perhaps DMT affects the way the brain interprets sensory data and therefore augments our perception.
    I've also heard people say that their perception of time is impacted.

    The 'ego breaking down' and the fact their perception of time is affected sounds like the limitations on our sensory intake are being effected.

    Our 'perceived reality' is greatly determined by the limitations of our senses. Perhaps when these senses are affected by DMT for example, we are able to perceive the same reality but with a different lens/filter. Not sure if we are seeing more or less or just simply a different perspective.
  • armonie
    45


    You say that brain activity correlates with experience, well, but brain activity is not the experience lived. So, we cannot identified psychic activity with superior nerve activity. The superior nervous activity is the material substrate in interaction with the world that makes possible that world of images, ideas, etc.

    It is not a belief that you reach, it is a logical contradiction; or it rains or it doesn't rain.
  • armonie
    45


    We see the world through structures, that is why we can have world schemes and adapt to the schemes that already exist in the world. It's like an adaptation of schemes, let's say.

    With DMT, we know or explore more structures, so we add more schemes to our image of reality or learn more about our own structure. That is why the phrase is often used -slang- that one "broadens one's consciousness".

    This is because the previous image we had of reality is "broken" as you say.
    And that image is that which is related to the ego, acquired as it were.
    So how dangerous it is to "break" with this normalizing image for culture. That means starting to make philosophy.
  • Yanni
    16

    I guess what I was getting at is, is it reasonable to define these “schemes” as other dimensions?
    And if so, does that necessarily mean they are “spiritual dimensions” as OP’d?
  • armonie
    45


    From which perspective can they be interpreted as "other" dimensions?

    I think they could be interpreted that way, but only for those who have not had the experience of exploring them. For those who were browsing those frequencies they are no longer other dimensions, they are part of their reality. As is my case for example.
    And like you, I find no reason to color those parts of adjectives as "spiritual" because these schemes are accessed from the phenomenal, lets say.
  • leo
    752
    You say that brain activity correlates with experience, well, but brain activity is not the experience lived. So, we cannot identified psychic activity with superior nerve activity. The superior nervous activity is the material substrate in interaction with the world that makes possible that world of images, ideas, etc.armonie

    I agree that brain activity is not the experience lived, but I do not see what your point is.

    It is not a belief that you reach, it is a logical contradiction; or it rains or it doesn't rain.armonie

    You simply misunderstood what I said, “the spirit dissolves into the rest of the universe” precisely doesn’t mean that the spirit ceases to exist, it continues to exist in some way, like the material parts that composed the body keep on existing.
  • armonie
    45
    I emphasize it because usually, in the theological debates when talking about death, one always goes to say that when the brain activity stops emitting waves it is also considered that the "soul" ceases to exist.
    In my opinion I can reason that yes, that de fact of brain activity stops working and emits waves but that does not explain the other, that the psyque ceases to exist or interact with the world.
  • Yanni
    16
    From which perspective can they be interpreted as "other" dimensions?armonie

    Yes this is what I’m asking.

    It seems that before the propsed conclusions within the OP can be further explored, we would require some elaboration on his concept of dimensionality, spirituality and also their relationship to one another.
  • armonie
    45


    Do not start by developing the concept in this case.
    It can only be learned through the experience of that new scheme.
    Once this new reality is shown, a neologism.
  • Yanni
    16

    What do you mean by “developing the concept”?
  • armonie
    45
    It is when your sign interpreting part begins to relate that new scheme with others that you already had, it begins to "compare" so to speak.
    Like when you named the time scheme, then, what happens over time? There is an irregularity here. Which leads us to think again that time is relative.
  • Marc
    9
    I think you guys are looking to deeply into my argument. It is very simple. It is simply stating that the trip one gets from dmt exists (this trip is different to dreaming and most other psychedelics hallucinations as it is a completely foreign experience ie. people believe their soul leaves their body). Because this trip exists it is a part of nature. The principles that govern nature (ie friction is caused when two object drag, eating food gives nutrition, gravity brings objects together, when dmt is smoked one hallucinates in a certain way) account for this experience and the experience is very complex. This leads me to believe that the experience must be real, otherwise it would exist merely to deceive humans into believing it exists.
  • armonie
    45
    Psychedelic Solipsism.
    Well, but man, we all know that..that the concept of hallucination and the limits of the real have been set there arbitrarily.
  • Wallows
    9.6k
    Psychedelic Solipsism.armonie

    I like that, tell me more.
  • leo
    752
    I think you guys are looking to deeply into my argument. It is very simple. It is simply stating that the trip one gets from dmt exists (this trip is different to dreaming and most other psychedelics hallucinations as it is a completely foreign experience ie. people believe their soul leaves their body). Because this trip exists it is a part of nature. The principles that govern nature (ie friction is caused when two object drag, eating food gives nutrition, gravity brings objects together, when dmt is smoked one hallucinates in a certain way) account for this experience and the experience is very complex. This leads me to believe that the experience must be real, otherwise it would exist merely to deceive humans into believing it exists.Marc

    Indeed the experience is real, I would say all experiences are real. But to what extent is the experience an experience of something separate from us (such as of a spiritual dimension), or a creation of ourselves (of our mind)?

    But then we can ask the same of the world we see with our usual senses, do other people exist or are they a creation of our mind (solipsism)? If we assume from our experiences of other people that other people exist, it is natural to assume from experiences of other spirits that other spirits exist.

    In any case psychedelics tell us something important. But even though the experience is real, it could be that the interpretation of the experience is mistaken. For instance not all people who take DMT (or another psychedelic) react the same way. But then it can also be said that not all people see the usual world the same way (for instance there are blind people), so as we explain why some people don't see the usual world it could be that later on we come to explain why some people don't see the spiritual dimension.

    One of the things that prevents me from being absolutely certain that the spiritual dimension exists (as in a place where our spirit goes to when we die) is that in the past I have had vivid and lucid dreams that would have really strange implications if they were experiences of something separate from me rather than a creation of my mind. For instance when I was a kid I once had a vivid dream of a Tyrannosaurus rex chasing me in our garden, that would be strange if that was a real thing that happened and not a creation of my mind based on things I had seen (such as depictions of dinosaurs and Jurassic Park).

    How do we know whether an experience we have is coming from outside us or from within us? Is 'outside' or 'inside' a label that we assign arbitrarily?
  • Marc
    9
    I believe dreams are a creation of the mind. Whenever I dream it is always of something that I could conceive of while conscious, or something derived from my past experiences. For example, if I dreamed of riding a unicorn, it is not something possible in real life, however could certainly be imagined.

    The characteristic of dmt that makes it unique is that it creates an experience that previously one could not possibly imagine (the experience of literally leaving your material body and floating through some strange place). The only way this could still be a product of the mind is if it were some fundamental information that is subconsciously stored in the brain.

    If this were the case, where would this information originally be derived from?
  • leo
    752


    I know what you mean, for instance the best way I can describe psilocybin is that it allows one to see/imagine/understand things that one is not capable of seeing/imagining/understanding usually.

    That information being subconsciously stored in the brain is a possibility, however that’s doubtful because studies have shown that brain activity decreases while under the effect of psilocybin, instead of increasing as would be expected if it allowed to access more information from the brain.

    Another possibility is that the mind is more than the brain (which to me is a necessity for other reasons, if the mind reduced to the brain we couldn’t explain the existence of qualia), and that the mind is able to create experiences that are more than combinations of previous experiences, that it transcends causality, and that there are ways to help it express that ability through psychedelics. I have heard that some people have found a way to relive similar experiences without using psychedelics, I’ll have to look into that.

    But if the mind has that incredible ability then indeed why would it be entirely causally dependent on the physical body?

    So I do think that when the body dies the mind doesn’t instantly cease to exist, but the big mystery is does it go on to keep living in a spiritual realm, or does it remain partly connected to matter and dissolves into the universe just like the matter that makes up the body disintegrates without being destroyed? As the atoms that make up the body do not cease to exist, they move on to other places within the material universe.

    Since the mind is at least partly connected to the body, it seems equally strange that the mind would suddenly disappear upon death of the body, or that the mind would go on to exist independently in another realm. Maybe then the explanation that makes the most sense is that the mind neither disappears nor goes on to exist independently, but that it dissolves into the rest of the universe, which would make reincarnation real in some way.
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