• Borraz
    29

    "What can logic do without information?"

    Logic is information.
  • christian2017
    1.3k
    Imagine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe. What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything? Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math? By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg

    I would imagine the universe could be built several different ways (atleast a handful), but i would imagine that person would build it in such a way to benefit his/her self the most, simply because that person got there first and probably believes he/she did the most planning. The book of Job covers this.

    Yes i believe atleast some mathematical principles are not invented but are based on simpler mathematical principles. Perhaps all mathematical principles are just logic and none are invented.

    I believe after much thought and anguish and scenario running (running scenarios in his/her head involving feeling the consequences), that person would pick a solution that best suited that person or atleast approached the threshold of the optimal solution for his or her self.
  • christian2017
    1.3k
    magine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe. What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything? Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math? By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg

    If you were so good at running scenarios in your head that you knew extremely well what would happen in any given scenario with all parameters set up a certain way, does that mean that scenario happened or is it still a figment of your imagination? I'm not that good at running scenarios so i wouldn't know.

    I would imagine running the scenarios to this degree of accuracy might also involve feeling what every creature feels within the scenario (offset by time).
  • christian2017
    1.3k
    Imagine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe. What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything? Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math? By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg

    I would imagine if this person didn't have atleast some basic starting point in basic mathematical concepts, this person would not be able to move beyond to creating anything. The person and universe would be in perpetual limbo. Complex mathematical concepts (as you know) build off of simple mathematical concepts including geometry.
  • Harry Hindu
    3.2k
    It is communicated as a concept. Black to white grayscale is a simple concept of linear variable, brightness varies from 0 to 255 for example. So then RGB frame for color concept is combination of three such variables: Red, Green, Blue. But it might not be a simple combination, don't know.Zelebg
    Concept is just a mental category. We categorize part of our brute visual experience as the concept, color, and language isnt necessary to do this. We can mentally categorize the world without using words. They are communicated as words. The concept stays inside your head and are translated into words, scribbles and sounds, to communicate the concept that is in your head to others.

    If language is only social, and you can only derive concepts from language, then how did the first person acquire concepts?
  • Eleonora
    87
    Logic is just grammar; ways of putting symbols together. Nothing to symbolise means no symbols.Banno

    The ways to put them together still remains - the grammar. The conceptual prospects still remain to symbolize. Logic without information is concepts. Try living with the prospects for all concepts forever. Even the dead can't escape that reasoning. It takes higher faculties of self-deception to pull that off. Nothing is not a thing. The concepts owning up to that truth is the purity of Kant's right in my opinion. Despite how little we are, with the prospects of it we can still think about it.
  • Eleonora
    87
    By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg

    I hereby coin that color B: for Batch - the number of concepts required to derive a concept. If you ever figure the quanta of it's batch out; hit me up.

    Love,
    EL
  • Eleonora
    87
    Such abstract, Platonic world is not observable and has nothing to do with observation.alcontali

    It is observable too - as concepts. The world is dualistic, which means in the end that every statement is true to it. You're right, ofcourse - as well as non-exclusive. This is the inclusion. Duality is a bitch; but only for as long as it needs to be taught. After that we can always agree fundamentally.
  • christian2017
    1.3k
    It is communicated as a concept. Black to white grayscale is a simple concept of linear variable, brightness varies from 0 to 255 for example. So then RGB frame for color concept is combination of three such variables: Red, Green, Blue. But it might not be a simple combination, don't know.
    — Zelebg
    Concept is just a mental category. We categorize part of our brute visual experience as the concept, color, and language isnt necessary to do this. We can mentally categorize the world without using words. They are communicated as words. The concept stays inside your head and are translated into words, scribbles and sounds, to communicate the concept that is in your head to others.

    If language is only social, and you can only derive concepts from language, then how did the first person acquire concepts?
    Harry Hindu

    Humans probably weren't the first "ape" to have a language. As for how man's predecessor stopped being able to procreate with our species, i don't know. I guess many would say the previous "ape" was wiped out or perhaps we killed them off.

    Humans possibly weren't the first animal to have some rudimentary concept of math. I could be wrong and i have nothing to prove my point. This is conjecture.
  • Sam26
    1.6k
    Imagine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe. What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything? Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math? By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg

    First, what would it mean to be "fully intelligent" without information of some kind? Intelligence has to be measurable in some way. Second, the universe couldn't be completely empty if you're in it. Third, if you're in the universe, then there is information, namely, you, your hands and feet, and the rest of your body. Your fingers alone could give you some basic information about math. Although one would wonder if you could have a language in such a situation, probably not. If language couldn't exist in such a situation (because of its social nature), then there would be no concepts. However, this doesn't mean that there wouldn't be colors, it just means that there would be no concepts for the colors.

    In terms of logic, if you were in the universe, then there would have to be some logic to your existence apart from you understanding that logic.
  • Athena
    735
    Interesting questions. Without knowledge there is no logic for even logic is learned. We are born only with the potential for learning.
  • Gregory
    972
    A koan is meant to make you unmeasurable. I feel like everyone is turning from the East and moving to Greece lately on this forum :(
  • Athena
    735
    A koan is meant to make you unmeasurable. I feel like everyone is turning from the East and moving to Greece lately on this forum :(Gregory

    Why are you unhappy about that?
  • Coben
    1.5k
    Logic without information is just some rules. Like the rules to checkers without, even a checkboard.
  • Coben
    1.5k
    Logic is just grammar; ways of putting symbols together. Nothing to symbolise means no symbols.Banno

    :up:
  • Coben
    1.5k
    By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg
    If the universe is empty, presumably there is no light. There is absolutely no way someone would come up with the concept of colors without ever experiencing light.
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