• Zelebg
    100
    Imagine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe. What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything? Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math? By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?
  • Purple Pond
    592
    Imagine you are born as adult, fully intelligent, in a completely empty universe.Zelebg
    I can't really imagine that. Perhaps you should ask someone who's entered a sensory deprivation chamber because that's the closest you can get to being conscious in an empty universe.

    What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything?Zelebg
    I don't think there can be an intelligent being who literally doesn't know anything.

    Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math?Zelebg
    It's an old philosophical problem. Some philosophers believe we are born with a blank slate. I'm thinking of empiricists such as Locke and Hume.
  • Zelebg
    100

    We usualy get born with two eyes and one nose. With the help then of the sense of touch, perhaps that's sufficient to derive everything else in the Platonic realm of geometry and math, and who knows what else is there.
  • Banno
    6.4k
    that's sufficient to derive everything else in the Platonic realm of geometry and math, and who knows what else is there.Zelebg

    I doubt it. Without sensory input the brain would not develop beyond a mush of cells.

    Mathematics is the recognition of patterns - no patterns, no maths.,

    And without other folk, no language within which to enjoy one's existential angst.


    Just a blank.
  • alcontali
    802
    What does it even mean to be intelligent without having no any information about anything?Zelebg

    Quite a bit of behaviour emerges from learning how to react to a posteriori information, in Kant's lingo. Still, pure reason, i.e. a priori cognition only, is also possible. Mathematics, being language about language, has gradually become exclusively a priori, i.e. pure reason.

    Or do we get born with some kind of basic information with which we could then derive some basic concepts and eventually geometry and math?Zelebg

    When you look at the basic beliefs, i.e. system-wide premises, in propositional logic (14 axioms), standard number theory (9 axioms) and standard set theory (10 axioms), you can clearly see that these axiomatic beliefs look arbitrary, speculative, and without possible justification. The fact that we readily adopt these seemingly arbitrary beliefs certainly suggests that they could be somehow part of our nature, i.e. our innate disposition.

    Seriously, there is nothing rationally meaningful about these basic beliefs. That does not mean that they are wrong. It just means that reason itself is not possible without having such basic, unjustified, and therefore seemingly unreasonable beliefs. In other words, the foundations of reason are not reasonable.
  • Banno
    6.4k
    Quite a bit of behaviour emerges from learning how to react to a posteriori information, in Kant's lingo. Still, pure reason, i.e. a priori cognition only, is also possible. Mathematics, being language about language, has gradually become exclusively a priori, i.e. pure reason.alcontali

    Kant was wrong.

    (There, that ought get this thread a few dozen more posts).

    Mathematics is the recognition of patterns - no patterns, no maths.Banno

    Logic is just grammar; ways of putting symbols together. Nothing to symbolise means no symbols.
  • Harry Hindu
    2.5k
    By the way, what are the minimum necessary concepts to derive the concept of colors?Zelebg
    I don't see how a color is a concept, or how it could be derived from prior concepts. It is a brute sensation. Actually, concepts are composed of colors. In this sense, colors are one of the basic building blocks of concepts. Every thought you have isn't composed of words. They are composed of colors, shapes, sounds, tactile sensations, etc. Words are themselves composed of these things. You can't use words without having eyes and ears, or the sense of touch for braille.

    The form our knowledge takes is dependent upon the types of senses we have. The types of senses we have is dependent upon the process of natural selection.
  • Zelebg
    100

    It is communicated as a concept. Black to white grayscale is a simple concept of linear variable, brightness varies from 0 to 255 for example. So then RGB frame for color concept is combination of three such variables: Red, Green, Blue. But it might not be a simple combination, don't know.
  • A Seagull
    68
    Logic without information from the real world is entirely abstract.
    Logic with information from the real world is real.
    They are two entirely distinct domains.

    As for logic without information, one can construct pretty Mandelbrot pictures, which are entirely abstract.
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