I'm here because I don't totally trust my own thinking and I want criticism, even insults. — yupamiralda

Don't be so self-abusive!

I think, that "meaning" is a psychological construct. So, perhaps you need to understand your own psychology to determine where are these questions arising from?

You state nothing has meaning, yet you behave as though things have meaning. How would you explain that inconsistency?

There is meaning and meaningless; some things mean something to us from external stimuli, some meanings are our own input, and vice versa. Why not attribute meaning to the Sun for it's benefits to your body? Did it not instantly mean anything to you?I

I don't see how life is meaningless makes any sense! Life's full of meanings; although we can experience meaninglessness, it's unwise to think all of life is meaningless.

I'm here because I don't totally trust my own thinking and I want criticism, even insults. — yupamiralda

It's the spirit of the age, the zeitgeist. Meaninglessness is the shadow of democratic liberalism. Philosophy can help understand that and see through it, but only if you're up for it.

I decided I didn't believe in anything more strongly than that I was a biological organism — yupamiralda

Meaninglessness; the illusion of discreteness, separation and threat.

Meaninglessness is the shadow of democratic liberalism. — Wayfarer

Meaninglessness shadows anyone who can think for themselves.

I think it depends on how much that thinking is dominated by the 'subject/object, internal/external' paradigm which has dominated the West and more intensely so since the Enlightenment. So, the way I see it "thinking for yourself" involves most importantly freeing yourself from that mode of thinking.

So, the way I see it "thinking for yourself" involves most importantly freeing yourself from that mode of thinking. — Janus

:ok:

I basically believe that nothing has any meaning. — yupamiralda

Meaning is the relationship between cause and effect. Meaning is everywhere, possibly the fabric of reality itself.

If nothing had meaning then there would be no way for us to communicate, as communication requires shared meaning. Your scribbles on the screen mean something that I try to get at when I look at them. They mean the ideas in your head and your intent to share them with others as that is what caused the scribbles to appear on the screen.

When asking myself what I should do under this condition, I decided I didn't believe in anything more strongly than that I was a biological organism, and my thinking should revolve around the idea of being a successful biological organism — yupamiralda

That is all any of us can do. Humans are very versatile (thanks to their large brains an opposable thumbs) and the variety of ways in which we choose to be successful organisms can make it seem like we have transcended our biology, but that is an illusion.

You arent just an organism, but a very intelligent and highly social organism that finds success in establishing long and useful relationships with others.

and doing what I can to ensure my offspring's success). — yupamiralda

Sounds like you find meaning in being a good parent. Why would you think this is absurd or deserving of criticism or insults?

It's the spirit of the age, the zeitgeist. Meaninglessness is the shadow of democratic liberalism. — Wayfarer

As someone said, "the present age has too much thought, and not enough existence."

In past ages, meaning for a man was tied to his nobility and honor. Democratic liberalism is the result of the slave revolt, that did away with the nobility of man and replaced it with the right to individual opinion. In effect, the rabble, not even fit to rule itself, has gained a hand in ruling over all, all while meaningfulness has been reduced to the lowest common denominator.

:smile:

Let me qualify that by saying I value democratic liberalism - especially compared with alternatives, like the Chinese Communist Party. But Western culture has lost its spiritual foundation. I see threads like this, and there are many, as being an (often uncomprehending) lament over that.

So you might ask, am I suggesting a return to traditional religion? I don’t think that’s possible either - but we need to understand what has happened by loosing it. Scientific naturalism, a la modern atheism, pretends to depict the world as it really is, devoid of the superstitious trappings of the past. But it too is a deeply historically-conditioned worldview, embodying a set of values - namely, ‘the value of no value’, the assertion of the Universe as devoid of meaning and therefore purpose, and that humans are the result of a fundamentally meaningless physical process. That’s scientific atheism in a nutshell, and that is what I see behind many of these threads.

Actually sometimes I wonder about whether individualism and ‘identity politics’ was actually based in the Christian sense of the intrinsic worth of the person. That was after all one of the revolutionary aspects of Christianity. But now that Christianity itself is in decline, then the original grounds for that valuation has gone with it. So the individual is now told that they are an end in themselves, that they can ‘be whatever you want to be’ - but with no deeper sense of what underwrites that, and furthermore without the implicit moral obligation (or covenant) implicit in the Christian formulation. So that leads to a fear of the abyss of meaninglessness, over which the modern individual qua free agent is dangling - pretty much as Nietzsche predicted. But the issue is compounded by the fact that those in this predicament don’t really understand their situation - they’re often unknowingly nihilist. And I think that is very widespread. I think it was Heidegger who remarked that nihilism is practically the default attitude in a scientific~secular culture; but if you ask a lot of people what ‘nihilism’ is or means, and they will really have no idea.

Let me qualify that by saying I value democratic liberalism - especially compared with alternatives, like the Chinese Communist Party. — Wayfarer

I agree with you here. But let me just point out that in the pre-modern/classic spirit, there was no illusion of choice. (Accidentally hit post)

You were born into your cultural role, and your task was to become that in your life's occupation.

As you point out, there is no going back. But it is evident that the effects of a mass culture that is based on the fundamental notion that you "can ‘be whatever you want to be’ - but with no deeper sense of what underwrites that, and furthermore without the implicit moral obligation", is having increasingly detrimental effects in to modern world.

Right! Glad to hear your agreement. There’s a book I read in my teen years which really stayed with me, Eric Fromm’s Fear of Freedom, which covers a lot of this ground. It’s probably a bit dated now but there needs to be more of its kind.

But Western culture has lost its spiritual foundation. I see threads like this, and there are many, as being an (often uncomprehending) lament over that.

So you might ask, am I suggesting a return to traditional religion? I don’t think that’s possible either - but we need to understand what has happened by loosing it. — Wayfarer

I was a Christian the first half of my life and then I became an atheist. The only thing that I lost was my belief in a god.

What is "spirituality" - a belief in a higher power, a belief in souls - and how does one lose it if not by freeing oneself from one's cultural conditioning?

Scientific naturalism, a la modern atheism, pretends to depict the world as it really is, devoid of the superstitious trappings of the past. But it too is a deeply historically-conditioned worldview, embodying a set of values - namely, ‘the value of no value’, the assertion of the Universe as devoid of meaning and therefore purpose, and that humans are the result of a fundamentally meaningless physical process. That’s scientific atheism in a nutshell, and that is what I see behind many of these threads. — Wayfarer

Wrong. Your freedom is realized when you understand that you don't need to look to a higher power, or to others, to give you meaning and purpose. You have the power to give yourself meaning and purpose with your own actions.

You are projecting to the general what applies only to the particular: what applies to you. Some people need organized religion and others don't. It's up to the individual to find out what they need; to discover, that is, what works for them.

I think it depends on how much that thinking is dominated by the 'subject/object, internal/external' paradigm which has dominated the West and more intensely so since the Enlightenment. So, the way I see it "thinking for yourself" involves most importantly freeing yourself from that mode of thinking. — Janus

As I see it there are two related but distinct aspects to this, which is basically spiritual (individual) and religious (group), and the thing that few realize or will acknowledge is that the ‘subject/object’ duality that the former may struggle with is merely replaced with an ‘in-group/out-group’ duality in the latter. There is ALWAYS an out-group for the religious. It is fundamental to its function.

Western culture has lost its spiritual foundation. — Wayfarer

Because the foundation (spiritual authorities) have been proven to be frauds, for the vast majority anyway.

So you might ask, am I suggesting a return to traditional religion? I don’t think that’s possible

Because traditional religion is no longer meaningful.

Because the foundation (spiritual authorities) have been proven to be frauds, — praxis

‘There would be no fools’ gold, were there no gold’ ~ Rumi

Thanks for the lead. I'm about to start reading it.

If you conclude that looking after your offspring has meaning how so? If you want them to have “success” what does that mean?

It appears that you’ve decided on what is meaningful to you. You may change your mind in the future and find meaning elsewhere, or not.

If you say there is no meaning it is contrary to then ask what you should do. As soon as you ask that question you’re searching for meaning. You create meaning from the phenomenon of life. I think underneath all of this is a deeper question you’re going to have to tackle at some point. That is the question of what is ‘better’ or ‘worse’? My only advice is not to be seduced by some perverse nihilistic based hedonism - that will lead to long-term disaster.

‘There would be no fools’ gold, were there no gold’ ~ Rumi — Wayfarer

That's like saying there would be no false self if there were no real self. Or no illusory external world if there were no real external world. I think the logic simply doesn't follow in any case.

As I see it there are two related but distinct aspects to this, which is basically spiritual (individual) and religious (group), and the thing that few realize or will acknowledge is that the ‘subject/object’ duality that the former may struggle with is merely replaced with an ‘in-group/out-group’ duality in the latter. There is ALWAYS an out-group for the religious. It is fundamental to its function. — praxis

Yes, the very notion of an "outgroup" could arguably be based on the idea of the separation of self and world. If there is no notion of self and world, no notion of the internal vs the external, then there can be no idea of internal "self-generated" meaning as opposed to meaning that is immanent in the world. Any such notion of a self with all its meanings set against a meaningless world is an archetypal expression of Cartesian thinking. This is one of the very important themes in Heidegger.

I would not necessarily agree that "there is ALWAYS an out-group for the religious" but there often is with religious institutions that have become politicized, that seek to control their members through fear of "contamination", of the Other; I would say this is fairly typical.

Because the foundation (spiritual authorities) have been proven to be frauds, for the vast majority anyway. — praxis

Anyone who sets themselves up as a any kind "spiritual authority" at all is likely to be a fraud in my view. It seems like many people need the frauds though, because they don't have sufficient independence of mind to think for themselves and make it on their own. The frauds give them solace and reassure them they are on the right path. Or the destructive frauds hold them in thrall by appealing to their guilt and feelings of inadequacy, unworthiness and self-hatred.

Because traditional religion is no longer meaningful. — praxis

Meaningful to you?

That's like saying there would be no false self if there were no real self. Or no illusory external world if there were no real external world. — Janus

Illusion only has meaning in relation to reality. Even in Hinduism and Buddhism, where 'the world' is considered maya, illusion, it is illusory from the perspective of one who sees through it. If everything is illusion, then you're back at nihilism. (And I think it's not surprising that there's quite a strong tendency towards nihilism amongst Western interpreters of Buddhism.)

Illusion can have a meaning in relation to an imagined reality. Think of the idea of naive realism; I have no doubt you would call that an illusion. What else could it be an illusion relative to, if not relative to the naively imagined reality of the world?

The same goes for the self. We have the illusion of a substantive unchanging self. If there is no such thing then what is the illusion an illusion relative to?

If you say that the illusion of these things, a real self and a real world is an illusion relative to the reality that there are no such things, then why could the illusion that there are spiritual authorities not be an illusion relative to the reality that there are no such authorities. I see no difference in the logic.

I basically believe that nothing has any meaning — yupamiralda

How about looking at it from an exam perspective. There's a fill in the blanks question:

2a. The purpose/meaning of life is_____________

As you already know there is no right answer to this question and that, ironically, is the best thing ever. We can fill the blank with anything and it wouldn't be wrong. I'm not sure if it'd be right though. Nevertheless it gives us freedom to do what we want to do. Isn't liberty more important than purpose?

It might be interesting to note, that meaning can only be appreciated after overcoming nihilistic tendencies. Nietzsche wrote about this, and logotherapy was born out of this predicament.

You are projecting to the general what applies only to the particular: what applies to you. Some people need organized religion and others don't. It's up to the individual to find out what they need; to discover, that is, what works for them. — Janus

Strange how you singled me out for "projecting to the general what applies only to the particular", when everyone in this thread would be doing the same thing, like using ill-defined terms like "spirituality", as if it applied to all atheists or whole cultures, as something they lost. :roll:

Delusions work for people who have no interest in the truth, or in spite of the truth that isnt consoling to them. Religion works as a crutch for the weak .

So you're using "meaning" strictly in the "(life's) purpose" sense.

Don't you think that some individuals have purposes that they've assigned themselves? For example, Joe's life's purpose might be to spend at least three weeks in every country. Jane's life's purpose might be to write two novels per year, etc. Alice's life's purpose might be to have kids and devote her life to them. It could be anything, really. (Granted that these are simplified, though--people usually have multiple, or at least multifaceted purposes if they have them.)

If those folks have assigned purposes to themselves, then there are purposes, no?

I basically believe that nothing has any meaning. — yupamiralda

You have to make your own meaning. People who try to find meaning, never do. You have to create it in philosophy, myth, art, etc. A true nihilist wouldn't have anything to say.

A sign you haven't created your own meaning might be excessive interest in ancestry or genetic bloodlines. As though the bodies and thoughts of your predecessors could be reflected perfectly in whatever you are. Which of course requires no myth-making or mythopoesis or meaning whatever.

Start with abolition of the past, realize there's no such thing as autonomous history. Return it to chaos, to in illo tempore. From the chaos, cosmicize...solarize your life according to prototypes/archetypes. Reactualize these gestures once a year with the beginning of time over and over again following each year's rite. Chaos to cosmos...unmanifest to manifest. The ultimate meaning is in regeneration.

Endlessly repeated history, together with the wrong image that it's autonomous with intrinsic meaning tends to make me feel the way of the OP. Intrinsic value is is imputed, not the sort of thing you find evidence for or data. I believe this is why meaning is disappearing in our species...meaning requires thought and can't be gleaned from physical observation or data. Nothing is more empirical than a kickshaw you are about to ingest...and yet it is without intrinsic value. The value of it is in the domain of idealism. Otherwise you just eat unconsciously.