• god must be atheist
    956
    The Christians invented free will?Hanover

    Nobody invented free will. It still is not existent.

    I don't know who came up with the notion first. All I know is that Christians use it extensively when they want to avoid responsibility for their god's actions.
  • Hanover
    5k
    Nobody invented free will. It still is not existent.

    I don't know who came up with the notion first. All I know is that Christians use it extensively when they want to avoid responsibility for their god's actions.
    god must be atheist

    Free will is assumed in the Old Testament, and most (every?) society assumes it.

    Anyway, it's not a solution to the problem of evil because plenty of bad things arise without human action, like earthquakes, disease, famine, etc. That is, free will isn't posited to save God from responsibility for all bad acts, but it allows for human responsibility for some acts. Without it, you would absolve all humans of all responsibility.
  • god must be atheist
    956
    That is, free will isn't posited to save God from responsibility for all bad acts, but it allows for human responsibility for some acts. Without it, you would absolve all humans of all responsibility.Hanover

    Theoretically, all humans are free of responsibility but they still get punished if they do some no-no or boo-boo.

    In fact, it's not god that punishes the evil-acting people, but other people. In the USA, and in Canada, mainly through the court system. Although there is vengeance, and the odd vigilante action.
  • Hanover
    5k
    Theoretically, all humans are free of responsibility but they still get punished if they do some no-no or boo-boo.god must be atheist

    Your thesis was that all humans lacked responsibility. You now restate it in the hypothetical. Why?
    In fact, it's not god that punishes the evil-acting people, but other people. In the USA, and in Canada, mainly through the court system. Although there is vengeance, and the odd vigilante actiongod must be atheist
    Was there some dispute about who ran the jails that you thought you needed to clarify it was the warden and not God?
  • god must be atheist
    956
    Your thesis was that all humans lacked responsibility. You now restate it in the hypothetical. Why?Hanover
    ... because theoretical trumps evidential, unless evidential contradicts theoretical.
    "My thesis" had already been theoretical... i only reiterated it as theoretical, not restated it. In the first instance that you refer to, I did not state it was theoretical. So I burn in hell because I did not spell that out to you?
    Was there some dispute about who ran the jails that you thought you needed to clarify it was the warden and not God?Hanover

    Yes. There was "responsibility" thrown in due to free will that god allegedly gave to people.

    Why am I asked to explain the simplest things to you? I don't mind complying with demands for explanations for a while, but I get tired of doing this after a while.
  • Bill Hobba
    28
    Whats a greedy capitalist? - someone who by legal/moral means maximizes profit? Or is it someone that does it by any means possible? If a God like the Christian God exists I think his/her reaction will differ depending on which group you belong to.

    Thanks
    Bill
  • Hanover
    5k
    because theoretical trumps evidential, unless evidential contradicts theoretical.
    "My thesis" had already been theoretical... i only reiterated it as theoretical, not restated it. In the first instance that you refer to, I did not state it was theoretical. So I burn in hell because I did not spell that out to you?
    god must be atheist

    You claimed it was hypothetical, yet previously you stated it as fact.
    Yes. There was "responsibility" thrown in due to free will that god allegedly gave to people.god must be atheist

    No one ever said God ran the jails. That was the clarification you offered. It just seemed a non sequiter and obvious.
    Why am I asked to explain the simplest things to you? I don't mind complying with demands for explanations for a while, but I get tired of doing this after a while.god must be atheist

    I still don't know why I needed to be reminded that people ran the court system.

    You've just asserted you don't believe in free will and you said it was a Christian creation. That's all you've asserted. The second part is false. Atheists can believe in free will. This just needn't be a religious discussion. There are even some religions that adhere to predestination, meaning ultimate responsibility is unrelated to the will.
  • god must be atheist
    956
    You're right. I had said free will was a Christian invention.

    Later, and please note my correcting myself, I said I did not know who invented free will, but Christians use it extensively.

    Please note these corrections and please disregard my before-correction stance.

    ---------------------

    Re: The jail bit. You asserted without free will there is no responsibility. I responded that there is no free will, no responsibility, but people punish each other if they do no-no or boo-boo.

    Then I offered an opinion that it's not god who punishes evil-acting people, (addiitonal explanation why I said that: as there is no responsibility due to free will, and god, if s/he existed, would only punish those who are responsible, if s/he were a fair and equitable and just god) but people punish evil-acting people.

    The corollary being from the above, that Christians use free will as a vehicle to place responsibility on people, but yet it is not their god that acts to punish those who are responsible, but people punish those who are responsible. Therefore the evil-act and punishment cycle is not a god-directed thing, as god himself or herself does not hold the evil-acting people responisble, as they have no free will, according to god too, since s/he would punish evil-acting people if responsibility for their evil act was vested within them.

    You agreed then later, that people put evil-acting people in jail.

    Maybe I left too large, gaping holes in the flow of logic in this explanation. I apologize for making the logical jumps too wide and large.
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