• Michael
    7.8k
    That's sort of the scenario in the US, but it goes both ways. That is, I think most conservatives in the US would have rather seen almost anything than Hillary being elected. The same holds true for liberals. I think they'd have agreed to scrap almost any liberal policy than to have Trump as president.Hanover

    I didn't think it was like that here. Prime Ministers aren't like Presidents.

    Though the biggest takeaway is really that Conservatives are willing to break apart the UK, damage the economy, and destroy their party just to secure Brexit.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    It just seems like no one can advocate for immigration regulation without being accused of bigotry.Hanover

    The thing is, we already have immigration regulation for EU citizens. We can kick people out after 3 months if they can't prove they're working, seeking work, or self-sufficient. The government just isn't doing that.
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    The thing is, we already have immigration regulation for EU citizens. We can kick people out after 3 months if they can't prove they're working, seeking work, or self-sufficient. The government just isn't doing that.Michael

    Sure, it's hard to enforce and everyone makes arguments that you're just kicking people out because they're Mexican, Polish or whatever the migrant worker country of origination is. The only solution then becomes to build a wall, either literally, or by making your island more of an island, fully divorced from the EU.
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    Though the biggest takeaway is really that Conservatives are willing to break apart the UK, damage the economy, and destroy their party just to secure Brexit.Michael

    No they're not. They're making Britain great again. MBGA.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    The only solution then becomes to build a wall, either literally, or by making your island more of an island, fully divorced from the EU.Hanover

    According to this, in 2018 there were almost 350,000 immigrants from non-EU countries and just over 200,000 immigrants from EU countries. If the government wanted to it could cut immigration by almost two-thirds without even leaving the EU.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    No they're not. They're making Britain great again. MBGA.Hanover

    You're probably joking, but breaking up the UK and damaging the economy isn't going to make Britain great. So honestly what's the real reason those Conservative voters want Brexit so bad? Seems like they want to make Britain worse off and I wonder why (and also why whatever reasons they have don't hold up in the face of a Corbyn government).
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    You're probably joking, but breaking up the UK and damaging the economy isn't going to make Britain great. So honestly what's the real reason those Conservative voters want Brexit so bad? Seems like they want to make Britain worse off and I wonder why (and also why whatever reasons they have don't hold up in the face of a Corbyn governmentMichael

    They don't want Britain to be worse off. That's not their motivation. They want autonomy. It's sort of like how I'd vote that you not have the right to come in my yard to cut my lawn, trim my bushes, and make sure my house looks in order all on your dime. It's my house damn it.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    They don't want Britain to be worse off. That's not their motivation. They want autonomy. It's sort of like how I'd vote that you not have the right to come in my yard to cut my lawn, trim my bushes, and make sure my house looks in order all on your dime. It's my house damn it.Hanover

    So they want autonomy even if it means breaking up the union and damaging the economy? But they don't want autonomy if it means a Corbyn-led government?

    Just seems like bullshit to me.
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    According to this, in 2018 there were almost 350,000 immigrants from non-EU countries and just over 200,000 immigrants from EU countries. If the government wanted to it could cut immigration by almost two-thirds without even leaving the EU.Michael

    I don't know enough about it, but I'm assuming there are limitations to how much Britain can limit emigration from EU countries into Britain and that imposes upon Britain self-rule.
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    So they want autonomy even if it means breaking up the union and damaging the economy? But they don't want autonomy if it means a Corbyn-led government?

    Just seems like bullshit to me.
    Michael

    They must think Corbyn is the boogey man.

    Let me take a poll of you:

    Would you rather: (A) A Trump led Britain with no Brexit, (B) a Corbyn led government with Brexit?
  • unenlightened
    3.7k
    Did you see any of Game of Thrones?frank

    That, nor The Sound of Music.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    I don't know enough about it, but I'm assuming there are limitations to how much Britain can limit emigration from EU countries into Britain and that imposes upon Britain self-rule.Hanover

    But not a limit on control over immigration from non-EU countries, and yet there's more immigration from non-EU countries, so if immigration is a problem then we can cut it by up to two-thirds without having to leave the EU by limiting immigration from non-EU countries.

    Would you rather: (A) A Trump led Britain with no Brexit, (B) a Corbyn led government with Brexit?Hanover

    Probably Trump with no Brexit.

    Although the situation is slightly different when asking me about it because the reasons I have for opposing Brexit, e.g. the threat to the NHS, are also reasons I might have for opposing Trump, and if what Trump would do to the NHS is worse than what a Corbyn-led Brexit would do to the NHS then it would be consistent with my motivation to favour a Corbyn-led Brexit.

    Whereas if your reason for being in favour of Brexit is that you believe that the democratically-elected Parliament of the UK should be autonomous then it would be inconsistent to then favour shared-rule with Brussels over an autonomous democratically-elected Parliament with Corbyn as Prime Minister.
  • Michael
    7.8k
    They must think Corbyn is the boogey man.Hanover

    Which makes me wonder what they think Corbyn will do to the UK if they're willing to damage the economy and break up the union to ensure Brexit but not willing to let Corbyn be Prime Minister to ensure Brexit.
  • Hanover
    4.7k
    But not a limit on control over immigration from non-EU countries, and yet there's more immigration from non-EU countries, so if immigration is a problem then we can cut it by up to two-thirds without having to leave the EU by limiting immigration from non-EU countries.Michael
    Sure, but the non-EU immigrates are the immigrants Britain has chosen to allow in but the EU immigrants are the ones foisted upon them. They want to choose who they let in and who they don't.
    Whereas if your reason for being in favour of Brexit is that you believe that the democratically-elected Parliament of the UK should be autonomous then it would be inconsistent to then favour shared-rule with Brussels over an autonomous democratically-elected Parliament with Corbyn as Prime Minister.Michael

    I think the Corbyn objectors are similar to your objections to Trump, which is that they think Corbyn will damage something particularly central to their ideology that is greater than their desire for an autonomous Britain. Just like you'd rather have Brexit if it meant Trump coming in and doing significant damage to the NHS, I think the Corbyn objectors would rather have Brussels controlling certain aspects of the British economy than to Corbyn doing the various damage they expect he will.
    Which makes me wonder what they think Corbyn will do to the UK if they're willing to damage the economy and break up the union to ensure Brexit but not willing to let Corbyn be Prime Minister to ensure Brexit.Michael

    He's a socialist. That might make me giving up some autonomy to avoid that. In the US, I'd likely accept a socialist President over control by Brussels because a socialist president would just result in gridlock and an American socialist is equivalent to a European conservative.
  • Punshhh
    624
    Hi, I've been away for a while, what better way to get back into the forum than venting some Brexit frustration. "They"(the erg) are stuck in the 1960/70's, and seem to view Britain as if it needs saving again, like when Maggie "saved" us. To them Corbyn is a Marxist who will turn Britain into Venezuela, alongside the threat of a European super state controlled by the Germans, which we will inexorably become sucked into. They have pretty much seen their dreams of Britain once again independent on the high seas, with the world as its oyster, fade into impossibilities. And so in desperation to save us at the last minute, they will commit Harikari, and take the rest of us down with them.
  • Coben
    256
    And so in desperation to save us at the last minute, they will commit Harikari, and take the rest of us down with them.Punshhh
    Britain will survive either way. That many on both sides couch it and so binary and end of Britain if the wrong choice is made isn't helping anybody.
  • Punshhh
    624
    "Britain will survive either way. That many on both sides couch it and so binary and end of Britain if the wrong choice is made isn't helping anybody."

    I'm not here to help anyone, I'm here to discuss politics.

    By the way, do you think Scotland will leave UK if there is a no deal Brexit? I'm listening to an interesting discussion on LBC about this at the moment.
  • Wayfarer
    7.8k
    My Christmas wish for the last two years has been - Brexit is abandoned, Trump is impeached. Both votes were unmitigated disasters, but my wish doesn't look remotely like coming true. It even looks like Johnson is going to be Britain's version of Trump. Heaven forbid. :cry:
  • Punshhh
    624
    Hi there, I share your pain. I'm listening to a great radio pundit on a phone in radio show, who has been asking for sometime, for someone to ring in and point about a benefit of leaving the EU and none has been forthcoming, a few people have tried, but it turns out they have been mislead and haven't questioned the assertion they have been sold.

    Theresa May is speaking in Scotland right now warning of the split up of the Union in the case of a no deal Brexit. While having spent the last three years ignoring any Scottish representatives, and telling them to shut up and get lost. The hypocrisy.
  • Benkei
    2k
    accessible via the net? I'm quite interested in hearing how that talk show is unfolding.
  • Punshhh
    624
    Yes, it is available online, or on Global Player app. Just google LBC UK. The pundit is James Obrian, 10.00-1.00 UK times Monday to Friday. He is a philosopher, so cuts the crap quite well.
  • Benkei
    2k
    Thanks. Unfortunately, or maybe I'm just stupid, I can't find an option to find the whole show from this morning. Am I not looking closely enough or is it really not there?
  • Punshhh
    624
    Sorry for the delay, I listen on DAB radio, so don't know how it works online. Essentially the majority of callers on that programme thought it quite likely that Scotland would leave the union with a no deal Brexit. The bit about Gibraltar was scary.

    The show should be good this morning following the leadership debate last night
  • Punshhh
    624
    I've just found out that you can download a podcast.
  • AngryBear
    19
    I'm a Dual Citizen British and Swiss so I have an escape plan if need be. Having said that I don't like what the EU is becoming, while I agree with the basis of an EU (a body to help with European trade), it has become a power hungry entity (it feels like a cult now with their behavior). It is very undemocratic with not just the lack of proper elections by the EU population but also with the idea of different nationals ruling each other. It would make sense that a German EU politician would do things that are in Germany's favour.

    So I am attracted to Brexit as it not only provides sovereignty but also we can create trade agreements that best suit us, an EU trade takes many years and is filled with far too many regulations. Now with Brexit we could create the perfect trade agreements.

    As to the commitments we made, I think they were made with the mindset that we would commit ourselves to the EU, now we have decided to leave those commitments are no longer valid. While I agree this is unfair it is also the danger of a Union, it is always possible that members could leave so in that case its just one of the disadvantages a Union has. If I go to work 9-5 I have to accept that im possibly going to eventually get really bored of it.

    But what matters is the result, could it damage our quality of life in the long run or only short? This is impossible to predict as Brexit does provide a lot of opportunities to improve our economy. However the EU might want to punish us by introducing all kinds of tariffs and make trade between us as difficult as possible, the reason I believe this is because they want to set an example so no other nation leaves. But we all know that these interior fear tactics shorten an empires stability.

    I dont want anyone to get hurt, even though I dislike the EU, I hope we can trade with them positively and share a great growth of prosperity. Politics has become very hateful recently and that type of attitude needs to stop, just because you disagree with Brexit doesn't mean you should hope the UK economy fails as I have heard so many say.
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