• ssu
    8.3k
    A good documentary. Shows just how long it takes for the effects to be noticed.
  • Tim3003
    347
    The market manipulation continues with the disaster budget. Expect more crises. It would have been so easy to make a deal with the EU, by simply agreeing to the trade rules - but no, we were so desperate to have the US's chlorinated chicken and fake cheese. But then we couldn't even make that deal, because we 'forgot' the Irish border. I say sabotage!unenlightened

    I'd say Right-wing fanaticism rather than sabotage. But the Truss disaster illustrates the fallacy of the whole concept. The question is whether Brexiteers and the new PM can hold fast to their no-immigration policy in face of chronic labour shortages, and the no-EU-trade-deal if the N.Irish Unionists keep on suffocating the NI govt. The labour shortage is masking the loss of EU-export-trade jobs too. Unemployment is surely going to surge next year.

    Boris is for tax rises to placate the masses. We know that; but it's not Tory, so can he win? Maybe Sunak can chart a middle-way, but the Tories are so split I doubt even an economic upturn can prevent him losing the 2024 election. Only then can we get a fresh start and work out a realistic vision of the future.
  • Benkei
    7.4k
    How's Bregret going for everyone? Fantastic growth numbers, easy to export goods too.
  • Changeling
    1.4k
    I heard the rejoiners are growing in number
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    Yeah, and look how well the NHS is doing on the extra £450M. per week!
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    A good documentary. Shows just how long it takes for the effects to be noticedssu

    Shouldn't there be some time limit to causation? I haven't heard of cases where a man hit on the head 50 years ago pressing charges against the assailant for a brain hemorrhage now.
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    There are bigger problems than Brexit at the moment. All public services and a lot of sectors are in crisis, or collapsing. Brexit adds a bit to this, but this failure along with economic failure is more as a result of a decade of austerity followed by the pandemic.
    The idea that Brexit was a mistake is spreading, which is now a majority view. But neither of the big two political party’s are talking about any attempt to forge closer links with the EU. Both ruling out rejoining SM, or CU.
  • ssu
    8.3k
    Shouldn't there be some time limit to causation? I haven't heard of cases where a man hit on the head 50 years ago pressing charges against the assailant for a brain hemorrhage now.Agent Smith
    This is a Philosophy forum, so you know that causation isn't structurally related (or confined) to time, especially a time limit.

    But politicians use extensively (or abuse) the short memory of the public. Hence policies that didn't work the last time can be used again in the same fashion, when it's just old people or historians noticing that the present won't work because it's already tried.

    (A very important thing when you have stagflation and negative real interest rates, btw.)
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    :up: So, if there's no time limit to causation, the Brexit problem could be due to Queen Victoria' policies!? :chin:
  • ssu
    8.3k
    You then should convince us just why Queen Victoria's policies have still effect today, and having more effect than for example the decision of the conservative party of the present holding a referendum on the issue thinking it won't get the reply from the people that it did.

    Simple as that.

    And I would think the prime ministers and the leaders (political and economic) and their policies and decisions would be more important as Queen Victoria wasn't an autocrat.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    You then should convince us just why Queen Victoria's policies have still effect today, and having more effect than for example the decision of the conservative party of the present holding a referendum on the issue thinking it won't get the reply from the people that it did.

    Simple as that.

    And I would think the prime ministers and the leaders (political and economic) and their policies and decisions would be more important as Queen Victoria wasn't an autocrat.
    ssu

    Does Queen Victoria not have a legacy? All powerful people leave their mark on the country or so I hear. I dunno! :confused:
  • ssu
    8.3k
    Does Queen Victoria not have a legacy?Agent Smith
    Someone who has a time of age named after them surely has a legacy.

    But how much of that is of her political decisions is a different thing. I assume that later Elizabeth II's reign will be talked about the Elizabethan era too. Especially if Britain in the time of the current and future monarchs is very different.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    Someone who has a time of age named after them surely has a legacy.

    But how much of that is of her political decisions is a different thing. I assume that later Elizabeth II's reign will be talked about the Elizabethan era too. Especially if Britain in the time of the current and future monarchs is very different
    ssu

    Well, in line with your beliefs, I'm inclined towards a no-time-limit view of causation (re chain of causation). Intriguingly, if I'm correct, some things become effectless i.e. their causal power diminishes with time to zero.

    Perhaps we could take a more nuanced approach and talk about remote and proximate causes of Brexit. Let's meet at the halfway point, eh?
  • ssu
    8.3k
    Sure.

    For such complex event as Brexit giving single reason is simply stupid. Remote/proximate or major/minor reasons is the way to go. And of course, it's the questions one asks that define what you answer.
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    Perhaps we could take a more nuanced approach and talk about remote and proximate causes of Brexit. Let's meet at the halfway point, eh?Agent Smith

    I suggest a single "Elizabethan age", subtitled "the age of Empire" to stretch from Liz 1. to Liz 2. Brexit is the thus the last gasp of Colonial sentimentality and the final end of British dominance in the world, orchestrated by the same buccaneering (rapaciously exploiting) spirit that built the Empire in the first place, turned full force on the populace and accumulated wealth of the mother country.
  • Agent Smith
    9.5k
    I suggest a single "Elizabethan age", subtitled "the age of Empire" to stretch from Liz 1. to Liz 2. Brexit is the thus the last gasp of Colonial sentimentality and the final end of British dominance in the world, orchestrated by the same buccaneering (rapaciously exploiting) spirit that built the Empire in the first place, turned full force on the populace and accumulated wealth of the mother country.unenlightened

    The death throes ...
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    The buccaneering started in 1066. A thousand years of empire.
  • ssu
    8.3k
    Brexit is the thus the last gasp of Colonial sentimentality and the final end of British dominance in the world, orchestrated by the same buccaneering (rapaciously exploiting) spirit that built the Empire in the first place, turned full force on the populace and accumulated wealth of the mother country.unenlightened
    How is joining (and then exiting) the European Union the last gasp of Colonial sentimentality I don't understand. But you are right that during Elizabeth II's reign the last traces of the British Empire, and the aspirations for that empire came to an end. The reign of Charles III is really the post-imperial UK, even I would put the final nail was put into the coffin of the Empire in the Suez crisis.

    The buccaneering started in 1066. A thousand years of empire.Punshhh
    You put so much on the shoulders of ex-vikings, the Normans? The invasions for Ireland started only in the 12th Century and I don't know just how English were the Norman and the Plantagenet kings were.

    And I'm not so sure if English rulers would have been less bellicose if Harold Godwinson would have won the battle of Hastings. But the English surely have fought nearly everybody anywhere, yet drinking that cup of tea and all the polite English manners makes them not seem so bellicose as they actually have been in history. (For some reason it's the German who get the bad reputation.)
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    How is joining (and then exiting) the European Union the last gasp of Colonial sentimentality I don't understand.ssu

    Joining was an attempt to create a new European Empire, and when the French and Germans refused to be subserviently grateful for our presence, they became an oppressive bureaucracy responsible for holding us back. It's the same thinking that considers our independence from Europe is a great boon and natural right, but Scotland's independence from England is insulting and unthinkable. It's all sentimentality, and that's why it has the consistency of porridge - thick, but easily stirred.
  • ssu
    8.3k
    Joining was an attempt to create a new European Empire, and when the French and Germans refused to be subserviently grateful for our presence, they became an oppressive bureaucracy responsible for holding us back. It's the same thinking that considers our independence from Europe is a great boon and natural right, but Scotland's independence from England is insulting and unthinkable. It's all sentimentality, and that's why it has the consistency of porridge - thick, but easily stirred.unenlightened

    I think you shouldn't overestimate this. First of all, even if they were the eurosceptics right from the start in the Conservative Party (starting with Thatcher), the Conservative Party (and the Labor Party) have actually been for the EU and EU membership until Brexit happened. It's this unfortunate miscalculation that the Conservative leadership made that the Brexit vote wouldn't go the way they planned and give the opportunity for the populists and for the people to give a finger to the elite.

    Besides, I don't think that there was so much hubris among the British politicians when joining an organization like the EU that they could walz in and take control: The UK had been in the UN and other organizations, so the idea of the UK taking the control of EU was a silly, idiotic idea.

    This isn't imperialism, this is basically the English attitude of seeing them apart from the "Continental Europe". You have to be filthy rich like Norway or the Swiss to tag along yet not be a member. And apart from I guess France and the Benelux countries, every goddam EU memberstate feels being apart from the EU core. Germany has it's own problems in the closet, for Spain and Portugal Brussel's is far away, so is this for the other Southern European countries, the East European countries and the Nordic members of EU. Us versus Brussells is an universal attitude, not something just in the English mind.

    And actually the British Brexit example has shown many European countries how stupid the "independence" is from the EU, how much workforce integration there already is and how the positive aspects of EU membership still do outweigh the negative aspects.
  • javi2541997
    5.3k
    And apart from I guess France and the Benelux countries, every goddam EU memberstate feels being apart from the EU core. Germany has it's own problems in the closet, for Spain and Portugal Brussel's is far away, so is this for the other Southern European countries, the East European countries and the Nordic members of EU. Us versus Brussells is an universal attitude, not something just in the English mind.ssu

    :up:

    It is true that thanks to Pedro Sánchez, Spain has been in the core of Brussels’s interests or at least more visible. Nonetheless, we are aware that we are not so important as much as France. But it is better being in the club than outside. We accept that thanks to EU, Spain experienced a big development and I am thankful, even I wish EU organisms control us rigorously because our politicians tend to be corrupt, inefficient and incompetent (at least, more than the rest)
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    so the idea of the UK taking the control of EU was a silly, idiotic idea.ssu

    I agree with your analysis of the political thinking. But my explanation is of the failure of that calculation. Idiotic ideas are the rule for popular thinking; the mantra, "take back control", is still being recited. that is the same idiotic idea. Independence good - isolation bad: trade deal good - harmonisation bad: and so on. Membership makes good economic sense, but has been trumped by xenophobia. Idiotic for sure, but actively fostered and exploited by the Conservatives for decades.
  • Punshhh
    2.6k
    You put so much on the shoulders of ex-vikings, the Normans? The invasions for Ireland started only in the 12th Century and I don't know just how English were the Norman and the Plantagenet kings were.

    And I'm not so sure if English rulers would have been less bellicose if Harold Godwinson would have won the battle of Hastings.
    I go back to that event because for most of that thousand years those Norman baron’s colonised and controlled British society. It did fade into the aristocracy in recent centuries. However we still live very much under their legacy. And their direct decedents were and in some cases still are major land owners.
    It’s not so important who they were, but more that the reigns of power were held by this group for most of our recent history(post 1066).
  • ssu
    8.3k
    But it is better being in the club than outside. We accept that thanks to EU, Spain experienced a big development and I am thankful, even I wish EU organisms control us rigorously because our politicians tend to be corrupt, inefficient and incompetent (at least, more than the rest)javi2541997
    We here don't have that problem with our politicians, they aren't corrupt, people feel they are simply just incompetent (in what democracy people wouldn't feel so?). Ordinary folks think that our politicians are far too naive and the "South-European countries" simply fuck us when it comes to financing the EU budgets, especially the Greeks with all the assistance they have gotten.

    But it should be totally evident to all that European countries are so different mentally and economically that the idea of a real federation, just like with the US, isn't going to happen. Yet as a confederation of independent states, which it actually is, it works quite well... starting with the fact Europeans usually have been fighting each other.
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    Brexit needed to be placed in the context of the UK's violent, sometimes revolutionary history since its foundation 300 years ago; that what happens after the UK breaks up has been the primary issue ever since the collapse of empire, not Europe as such; and that there is a creeping constitutional crisis on many fronts, focusing on parliament's prerogatives, the monarchy, the house of lords, the voting system and centralization of everything in London at the expense of the regions, so that the main political issue, after Scotland's secession and the reunification of Ireland, will be and already is to some extent, decentralization and a new federation for the ex-UK. Britain is now in some ways the most unstable major polity in the world. — Keith Hart

    https://www.academia.edu/29662300/Where_once_was_an_empire_on_Brexit
  • javi2541997
    5.3k
    Anyone knows if this poll is real? Because I tried to find it at: Poll Results | Omnisis and it doesn't appear.

    5lol49wquvsa1.jpg
  • unenlightened
    8.9k
    That is the ring of approximate truth you have there, from what I hear. But it ain't going to happen, because the EU is well rid, and DeGaulle has been proved right that the UK is not capable of equal partnerships. The EU was a bit of a brake on the rabid right, it turns out, despite being all about capitalism and markets.

    The details are in VI 28 and can be downloaded by statistics nerds on the omnisis site above.
  • javi2541997
    5.3k
    Thank you for sharing your view. It is palpable. To be honest, I wish for a friendly relationship between the UK and all European countries because we share the same problems or crises: inflation, stock out, Russian threat, young generations, etc...
    I mean, it is not the time to put borders on or increase rivalry among us.
    On the other hand, I am aware that it is not only on the UK's side, but Brussels's too. Both sides need to understand each other.
  • javi2541997
    5.3k
    What do you think about Gibraltar?

    Spain and the UK agreed that it is necessary to reach an agreement on this point and establish a pacific relationship in Gibraltar's post-Brexit era.

    Spain aspires to create a zone of shared prosperity with neighboring "Campo de Gibraltar". According to London, the two have agreed on the need to reach an agreement "as soon as possible."

    I do not know what your thoughts are on Gibraltar, or if you folks care at all. Yet, it is important to highlight how both democracies want to resolve this issue diplomatically. 
    That's how discrepancies should always be resolved.

    I thought Brexit would cause a strained relationship between both. But no, this didn't happen and I guess it is due to the fact that our democracies are mature.
  • jorndoe
    3.4k
    Poll trends generally changed sometime around May 2021.
    Referendum in 2016, departure in 2020.

    Share of people who think Brexit was the right or wrong decision 2020-2024 (Statista · May 13, 2024)
    Brexit (YouGov UK)

    m84yzppzjrrk7xnt.jpg

    Inconveniences (e.g. traveling, moving to / studying in the EU, other difficulties)?
    Daily life changed (e.g. jobs, prices, availabilities)?
    New freedoms not as originally thought (e.g. rash decision, bregret, less influence on the EU)?
    UK security concerns?
    ...?
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