• BrianW
    999
    There are too many God arguments without proper definition of the identity of the God in question. If someone is referring to the Christian God, Islam God, Hindu God(s), etc., then please say so. And if you're gonna generate your own parameters and consequently define your own God, then please say so too.

    I would rather not see another argument based on the premise of an omnipotent God who creates a stone He cannot lift. I mean, Really? What/who the hell anything is this? How about that blind guy whose sight just happens to be okay? Ring a bell?

    The un-philosophical answer you're probably not looking for -
    Reveal
    The blind guy could be blindfolded or blinded by too much light, etc. The omnipotent God may have overdosed on muscle relaxants (He can create those, right?), etc.
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    They are all made up and none of them are real, so what does it really matter.There are far more interesting Things in life than god(s).
  • BrianW
    999


    Agreed. But that doesn't stop the hocus-pocus. So it's best to find better control of the discourse.
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    By defining "God" the only thing you will do is give them a clear excuse to reject anything you say.
  • BrianW
    999


    It's a debate no one needs any extra incentive other than a starting premise. However, by defining your identity of God, we get to see the degree of understanding you have. It prevents people from hiding behind vague screens.
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    You are just going to end up debating a shifting straw man.
  • Mariner
    374
    Perhaps I should bite.

    But how can I be sure that you are a fellow human being rather than a bot that will only waste my time?

    Perhaps if you defined what you are through some assemblage of words, it would help.

    Then again, how could this be of any use?
  • Wayfarer
    20.6k
    'I'll tell you if I'm an atheist, if you tell me what it is I'm supposed not to believe in' ~ Noam Chomsky.
  • BrianW
    999


    Not just any strawman. Perhaps a jolly strawman named Bob as opposed to the clown strawman of many mocking faces.

    But how can I be sure that you are a fellow human being rather than a bot that will only waste my time?
    Perhaps if you defined what you are through some assemblage of words, it would help.
    Mariner

    'I'll tell you if I'm an atheist, if you tell me what it is I'm supposed not to believe in' ~ Noam Chomsky.Wayfarer

    That 'if' is my point.

    Any further conditioning to an otherwise vague identity offers a volume of clues as to what the argument really is about. It paints a better picture for the context. Then again, a vague premise in the OP that would allow divergence into many different arguments might rack up more responses and/or address many related issues.
    Choose wisely, grasshopper. :wink:
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k


    In time you'll understand.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Please prove that something as small as human reason would be able to meaningfully analyze something of such enormous scale as gods, should such a thing exist.

    As example, please prove that squirrels are capable of understanding the Internet in even the most basic manner.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Please prove that something as small as human reason would be able to meaningfully analyze something of such enormous scale as gods, should such a thing exist.

    As example, please prove that squirrels are capable of understanding the Internet in even the most basic manner.
    Jake

    I would argue that human reasoning isn't "small". So far, humans have the greatest capacity to reason than any other animal.

    Also, our ability to reason says nothing about whether or not gods exist. Those are two separate issues.

    Why would a god create beings incapable of understanding it and not being able to prove its existence like we prove the existence of so many other things? If that is actually how things are, I couldn't care less what this god wants as it has limited my freedom and capacity to think for myself.
  • TWI
    151
    Quoted from Alan Watts:
    "... the central Self, let's call it God, it’s All of Us. It’s playing all the parts of All Beings whatsoever everywhere and anywhere. And it’s playing the game of hide and seek with itself. It gets lost, it gets involved in the farthest-out adventures, but in the end it always wakes up and comes back to itself"
  • Mariner
    374
    That 'if' is my point.BrianW

    If (or perhaps when, to prevent a new riff on if) you read the rest of my post, you'll see that your point has no point.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    I would argue that human reasoning isn't "small". So far, humans have the greatest capacity to reason than any other animal.Harry Hindu

    Apologies, but comparing ourselves to animals is a very common logical error, in regards to God questions.

    As example, a 12 year old would be more capable of mathematics than a 3 year old. But that doesn't automatically equal the 12 year old being capable of advanced particle physics.

    The God idea is a proposal about the most fundamental nature of everything everywhere. And...

    We don't know what "everything everywhere" refers to in even the most basic manner such as size and shape etc.

    When it comes to ideas the scale of gods, we're like the squirrel who can see the computer monitor and the blinking lights on the screen, but simply doesn't have the ability to grasp the level of abstraction involved in the Internet.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Also, our ability to reason says nothing about whether or not gods exist.Harry Hindu

    Agreed. Our ability to reason is relevant in that it impacts our ability to do a meaningful analysis of questions the scale of gods.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Why would a god create beings incapable of understanding it and not being able to prove its existence like we prove the existence of so many other things?Harry Hindu

    An amoeba asks, "How could there possibly be something like this human being thing you are describing?? I don't see any!!!"
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    ,Considering all this god crap is made-up human nonsense, then this means all gods are understandable by humans.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    Considering all this god crap is made-up human nonsense...Jeremiah

    Aha! Proof!!! We have found God!! His name is Jeremiah!! All hail Jeremiah!!!!
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    I command thou to send me money.
  • Rank Amateur
    1.5k
    Considering all this god crap is made-up human nonsenseJeremiah

    Yet again - i will be happy to argue against any set of premises that ends with the conclusion " therefore theism is unreasonable"
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    I don't really care.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    I command thou to send me money.Jeremiah

    Oh no you don't. I refuse to comply because according to the all knowing 22 year old prophet Jeremiah, gods are just made up nonsense. So forget it! Nana nana na na! :smile:
  • BlueBanana
    873
    Why would a god create beings incapable of understanding it and not being able to prove its existenceHarry Hindu

    Well he did create squirrels.
  • Jake
    1.4k
    I am 40.Jeremiah

    Oh dear, how sad. Hope you feel better soon!
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Apologies, but comparing ourselves to animals is a very common logical error, in regards to God questions.Jake
    But you were the first to compare us to animals - namely squirrels. So, I'm not suppose to take you seriously now?

    The God idea is a proposal about the most fundamental nature of everything everywhere. And...

    We don't know what "everything everywhere" refers to in even the most basic manner such as size and shape etc.

    When it comes to ideas the scale of gods, we're like the squirrel who can see the computer monitor and the blinking lights on the screen, but simply doesn't have the ability to grasp the level of abstraction involved in the Internet.
    Jake
    The God idea is ONE proposal about the most fundamental nature of everything everywhere. There are others that don't require the existence of a God and work just fine without it.

    Hoof-prints in the sand could be caused by unicorns, but there are other better explanations for the cause of the hoof-prints. The same goes for the God idea. The existence of the universe is not necessarily evidence of the existence of God, nor is the God idea the only possible explanation.

    What does it even mean to say that the "scale of gods" is beyond our understanding? What is the scale of the gods, and how do the gods know that there aren't "scales" beyond their understanding? How many gods are there? How do you know? What powers does one have that makes one a god?
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    Well he did create squirrels.BlueBanana

    ...and cancer, AIDS, etc.
  • Jeremiah
    1.5k
    I am not the one playing with imaginary friends.
  • BlueBanana
    873
    Yes?

    We don't understand why that is for reasons that we don't understand, but can infer are the same reasons for which squirrels don't understand those things.
  • Harry Hindu
    4.9k
    We don't understand why that is for reasons that we don't understand, but can infer are the same reasons for which squirrels don't understand those things.BlueBanana

    Sure we do. Squirrels and cancer weren't created. They evolved from prior, extinct species.

    Most species that have existed are extinct and all of this empty space in the universe that is hostile to life is evidence that there is no reason for our existence. We just exist. There is no "why".
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